looking into dog breeding. i need to ask some questions about my situation

[whitneyahk]

edit: given some of the sources ive been referred to, it doesnt sound like im in a position to raise happy, healthy puppies. i told my bf that and he doesnt wanna do it anymore. thank you to all that were helpful, and i wish everyone the best!

hello!

ive been doing research on dog breeding and i know the logisitics of it but the question i have is how feasible is it with my living situation?

im 23, living with my parents. we are on about an acre and a half of property that is not enclosed (we have an invisible fence that was for my dog who recently crossed the rainbow bridge). my bf lives on our property in a 5th wheel. he makes a lot of money flipping cars and boats so thats what he does most of the time. he has a black lab thats 1.5 yrs and he's his baby. he was recently asked if he would like to take in a female black lab who is not fixed, is about the same age, and he saw that as an opportunity for more income. i wanted to make sure this is done properly so i offered to do all the research and help him with the puppies if it works out.

long story short, he's getting a shed and i had the idea to use it as a place for the puppies (and their whelping box) since we cant have them in the house and the 5th wheel is too small. maybe we can throw up some insulation and drywall so that we can have it climate controlled. he's also getting one of those giant outdoor kennels which i think we could attach to the shed so that the puppies could go in and out if they want to when they get older. im just concerned about them having enough space to be happy and play.

during my research, i heard its good to have them in the house so they can get used to all the household sounds and smells. that isnt possible with our house. i mean, i could probably take one puppy at a time into the house and it could hang with me, but they cant stay in there. i also hear that some breeders have their whelping box in the house so they can hear if the puppies need them.

anyway, i just wanted to hear your thoughts as i want the puppies to be as happy and healthy as they can be. i know its going to be a lot of work but im ok with that and im available. do you think the shed + kennel (i think he said the kennel is like 15' x 15') is enough space? im thinking that it isnt... if not, whats the minimum amount of space they should have? is there anything i said that raises red flags or that concerns you? please be honest with me, i love dogs and little puppies and want to do whats best for them! thank you

 

[klpotte3]

@whitneyahk You will not make much, if any, money breeding dogs.

First off, you need to see if these dogs are even breeding quality.

https://ofa.org/chic-programs/browse-by-breed/?breed=LR
Here is the list of health tests both dogs need to have done and pass with good results. This is pricey.

Next, do these dogs have titles? If not, you need to get some titles on them.

Do they have full registration? Have you talked to their breeders about breeding them?

What's their pedigree like? What health tests and titles do the past few generations of dogs have? When did they die? From what causes? What health issues did they have? What were their temperaments like? What about the dogs from any litters these dogs produced?

Do you have a mentor in the breed? If not, you should find one.

Then, read this: https://www.pbrc.net/uploads/1/2/7/...e_a_breeder_by_laura_turner_-_google_docs.pdf
Understand that these things and even more can happen. You could lose the mom. You could lose the puppies. That is always a possibility.

The puppies have to be in an area with excellent climate control. When they are young, they need almost constant supervision.

There is always a chance that the dam rejects the litter. So you also have to be ready to take over. When this happens, it's a 24/7 job.

You need to be ready to keep all of these puppies until they find excellent homes. You also have to be ready to take any of them back at any point in time if their owners can't care for them anymore.

TL;DR : you won't make much if any money. A LOT goes into making sure that the dogs you are using are suitable for breeding. Having a litter is a ton of work.

 

[whitneyahk]

@klpotte3 ok awesome thank you for the sources and your insight! i will bring this up with my bf and see what he thinks.

 

[mygisfy]

@whitneyahk Breeding dogs should not be done as a source of income. Invisible fences will do nothing for puppies. Puppies should not be living in a shed out in your yard. Yes, a lot of the things you've said has raised red flags.

 

[whitneyahk]

@mygisfy i appreciate your honesty. i didnt intend to try to keep the puppies in with an invisible fence lol, was just giving a reason why our yard isnt enclosed. im coming from a place of ignorance and am trying my best to learn, you dont have to be so much on the offense, my friend. we all have to start somewhere.

either way, i already told my bf that it sounds like we are way in over our heads and not in a good spot to raise puppies right now. he said nevermind then.

 

[mygisfy]

@whitneyahk I answered your questions in a clear and concise way. That's all.

 

[whitneyahk]

@mygisfy aight

 

[oldwoodsman]

@whitneyahk Check out r/dogs wiki article on Identifying a Responsible Breeder.

Then check our Prima Doberman's cost breakdown for reputable breeding (Note: Prima does cropping and prong training which I do not agree with). Also, here is Omal Malmute's cost breakdown.

Then check out some of my costs in 2021 as a rescuer that specializes in taking in dumped pregnant dogs. I break down what my costs should have been per litter, but 2021 was a very bad year for me and I lost 37 foster dogs, including effectively three entire litters (0/11 survivors, 1/5 survivors, 0/12 survivors), and had two sick litters (5/12 and 7/9 survivors).

How are you with death? Statistically speaking (per a study in Norway of 224 breeds, 10810 litters, >100000 puppies), you will average at least one mortality every 4 litters.

Also take a look at this article called So you want to be a breeder. I have experienced more than half of the complications listed in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th sections, plus a bunch not listed.

Have her watch this video of my Coco Litter. Note how there are fewer and fewer pups until every single puppy and momma is dead.

 

[dukedesu]

@oldwoodsman That's very sad with the Coco litter. Do you know what happened? Was it CHV?

 

[oldwoodsman]

@dukedesu Hookworms and distemper. First of 3 litters that we would lose that year to distemper. 37 fosters died that year. Our previous worst had been 9. 40 in 9 months if we include December 2020.

And right now is when the Facebook memories of Coco come up.

 

[dukedesu]

@oldwoodsman So sorry, were all the litters lost from distemper? That's terrible.

 

[oldwoodsman]

@dukedesu 2021:

Tales of Arcadia litter: 9 orphan pups found nursing as newborns on their dead mother, umblical cords still wet. Lost 2 in first 12 hours.

Coco Litter: Coco and 11 pups lost to hookworms and distemper

Marine litter: 4 of 5 pups lost to distemper. momma survived

Raya and Last Dragon Litter: 12 pups lost to distemper. momma survived

Descendants Litter: 5 pups lost, 2 never made it to shelter, 3 were lost with us, 1 after just arriving, 2 despite intervention over next several days. Momma had tick born illnesses. She became a foster fail and is still with us. Watching me from my doorway at the moment.

Misc: Lost 2 pups while doing emergency medical transports on behalf of other rescues.

 

[dukedesu]

@oldwoodsman Poor babies, that's so hard. Thanks for detailing what happened.

 

[whitneyahk]

@oldwoodsman so many sources, thank you!

 

[caliisawake]

@whitneyahk https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/s/AzqfCHMUp3

Here’s a guide that I recommend to anyone who’s looking to buy a puppy from a breeder. If you’re not willing to do the things in this guide to be a reputable breeder such as CHIC certified OFA tests, proving your dog in sports/conformation, taking any puppies back so they don’t end up in the shelter, etc than please don’t breed these dogs. 300,000 dogs are put down every year in the United States. If you don’t think that breeding these dogs will improve the breed than please get your dogs fixed. I’m not trying to be a party pooper, but being an ethical breeder is hard and we do have an overpopulation problem, so unless you think your dogs are the best of the best and extremely healthy than they shouldn’t be bred.

I say this with the best intentions. I know you’re trying to do this the right way so I hope this helps!!

 

[whitneyahk]

@caliisawake thank you so much for your consideration! i ended up telling my bf that it sounds like we arent in a good position to raise puppies because i would want them to be happy and healthy and that doesnt sound possible atm. but thank you for your kindness and for taking the time to write this out!

 

[caliisawake]

@whitneyahk No problem! Thank you for trying to do this the right way! I’m so appreciative of people like you who want to put their dogs first- we need more dog owners like you in the word!!

 

[whitneyahk]

@caliisawake ofc the precious babies only deserve the best!!

 

[laurawend]

@whitneyahk I say this kindly: breeding dogs should not be done as a source of income, and dog breeding should not be thought of as a business. And it's sooooo much more than raising "happy and healthy" puppies. There are too many backyard bred dogs without homes who will die today, tomorrow, and every day for the rest of our lives, due to overpopulation and abandonment, as well as backyard bred dogs who will suffer their entire lives with genetic health issues passed down from untested, unproven parents-- the list goes on. We should do everything we can to prevent adding to this population. Practically no reputable breeders have litters to make a buck. They do so only because they think they have two dogs who can make a marked impact in the improvement of the health and conformation of a breed, and only after hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars are spent health testing and proving their dogs in the show ring. Most breeders only become breeders after many years of experience owning, handling, and showing a specific breed. It's also unlikely they breed the first purebred dog they own and show, or even title. By the time they become breeders, they're already experts in their breed, who have likely owned and proven many well-bred dogs. There are even people who devote their lives to the advancement of a breed who never actually breed a litter. The reality is most of us shouldn't be breeding our dogs-- not now, not ever, especially if we're just wanting to profit from them.