Looking for a nutritionist’s/scientist’s opinion on product quality
@plamp I'm a Food Microbiologist with almost a decade of experience in the Pet Food Industry, much of that experience has been in a Food Scientist as a consultant for things like regulatory compliance and even formulation (usually helping the Vet find substitute ingredients when supply chains were jeopardized) in a few cases.
Do you have specific questions? I can likely answer most of them! If you're interested in a breakdown of why "fresh" ingredients are not inherently better, I explained that fairly thoroughly in another comment.
Do you have specific questions? I can likely answer most of them! If you're interested in a breakdown of why "fresh" ingredients are not inherently better, I explained that fairly thoroughly in another comment.
@xavier363 The second part of your answer is actually kind of what I’m looking for
onestepcloser
New member
@xavier363 I have a question about Purina Pro Plan Dermatosis- is it really good for alleviating skin itching?
I'm desperate, I've tried everything, went to a few different vets, and nothing seems to improve my dog's condition
She was diagnosed with atopic dermatosis, is constantly biting and liking her paws, sometimes has outbreaks of ear otitis, and I don't know what to do anymore... she's been on Advanced Atopic, Virbac Hipoalergenic, Royal Canin Hipoalergenic, Brit Care, and now I would like to try Purina Pro Plan DRM.
I hope it works, I can't bear to see her suffer anymore, it breaks my heart...
She is also on Apoquel, to help with the itching.
If you could please take a moment to reply and let me know what you think about this particular food, I would so greatly appreciate it!
I'm desperate, I've tried everything, went to a few different vets, and nothing seems to improve my dog's condition
She was diagnosed with atopic dermatosis, is constantly biting and liking her paws, sometimes has outbreaks of ear otitis, and I don't know what to do anymore... she's been on Advanced Atopic, Virbac Hipoalergenic, Royal Canin Hipoalergenic, Brit Care, and now I would like to try Purina Pro Plan DRM.
I hope it works, I can't bear to see her suffer anymore, it breaks my heart...
She is also on Apoquel, to help with the itching.
If you could please take a moment to reply and let me know what you think about this particular food, I would so greatly appreciate it!
blacksabbath
New member
@blacksabbath Irrelevant. They are multinational conglomerates that started as those things.
They do hire the best in the industry, and have the most research supporting them.
I do have a major moral issue with those holding companies, but using that to claim the food is bad is terrible logic.
They do hire the best in the industry, and have the most research supporting them.
I do have a major moral issue with those holding companies, but using that to claim the food is bad is terrible logic.
blacksabbath
New member
@xavier363 It's just one of the reasons I whole heartledy don't trust the WSAVA recommendations. They are the vets that get a kick back on pet foods. It says on the WSAVA website that they are sponsored financially by these brands, and they are the only ones they advertise and supporting.
Its interesting.
The junk food of dog foods. I mean, look at what else these companies make. They don't care about your health or your pets health.
Its interesting.
The junk food of dog foods. I mean, look at what else these companies make. They don't care about your health or your pets health.
@blacksabbath Vets do not get kick backs. Period.
Yeah they are sponsored by the brands that are compliant, duh. Why would Acana or Orijen support a group who's recommendations they refuse to meet?
Again, that's not based in reality. Science supports most of their foods, and they are being formulated by some of the smartest people in the industry.
I have plenty of issues with them as companies, but to claim their food is low quality is asinine and contrary to established research/science.
Yeah they are sponsored by the brands that are compliant, duh. Why would Acana or Orijen support a group who's recommendations they refuse to meet?
Again, that's not based in reality. Science supports most of their foods, and they are being formulated by some of the smartest people in the industry.
I have plenty of issues with them as companies, but to claim their food is low quality is asinine and contrary to established research/science.
blacksabbath
New member
@xavier363 Local vets do not get a kick back but the WSAVA sure does. It says so on their website. I think its interesting that people really believe they are the "smartest people in the industry".
The food is fine. There's nothing wrong with it. I chose to make better choices for my dogs.
I'm sure you understand why someone wouldn't want to buy dog food from companies that make junk food or toothpaste.
The food is fine. There's nothing wrong with it. I chose to make better choices for my dogs.
I'm sure you understand why someone wouldn't want to buy dog food from companies that make junk food or toothpaste.
@blacksabbath .... Are you intentionally being dense? The WSAVA is supported by the brands that are compliant. They are not a government agency, so they need to be funded somehow. If Orijen and Acana met their standards, you bet your ass they would sponsor too.
Veterinary Nutritionists are THE MOST qualified people on the planet for formulation, so yes, by definition they are the best.
"I choose to ignore research in order to feed foods that thrive on consumer misunderstandings" FTFY.
It's a conglomerate. You are not buying food from a company that makes candy, you're buying food from a company who is owned by a group that also owns a candy company.
The parent company of Orijen and Acana is owned by a capital group that also owns Spring Air. "I don't understand why someone would buy dog food from a company that makes mattresses".
Veterinary Nutritionists are THE MOST qualified people on the planet for formulation, so yes, by definition they are the best.
"I choose to ignore research in order to feed foods that thrive on consumer misunderstandings" FTFY.
It's a conglomerate. You are not buying food from a company that makes candy, you're buying food from a company who is owned by a group that also owns a candy company.
The parent company of Orijen and Acana is owned by a capital group that also owns Spring Air. "I don't understand why someone would buy dog food from a company that makes mattresses".
blacksabbath
New member
@xavier363 The food I buy for my dogs comes from Just Food For Dogs. They have a board certified veterinary nutritionist, Board certified veterinary toxicologist, Board certified veterinary dermatologist, and lots of other qualified veterinarians that are also in my opinion "the smartest in the industry"
People are allowed to have different opinions than you, welcome to reddit. There are a lot of different choices, and I chose to ignore the WSAVA.
People are allowed to have different opinions than you, welcome to reddit. There are a lot of different choices, and I chose to ignore the WSAVA.
@blacksabbath Hey that's actually a brand I don't have an issue with. If they did more research, I'd actually have no issues recommending them. I'm glad you're actually using a brand that has some expertise!
I apologize for assuming you were feeding the popular brands around here!
I apologize for assuming you were feeding the popular brands around here!
blacksabbath
New member
@xavier363 I am very interested in pet nutrition. It's a complicated topic and there is a lot of misinformation, I do my best.
I love my dogs, I want to give them a healthy happy life with a well balanced diet.
I love my dogs, I want to give them a healthy happy life with a well balanced diet.
@blacksabbath There's definitely lots of misinformation, and consumers are extremely emotional on the topic, so they are easily swayed by buzzwords and the illusion of "better".
I don't blame you for wanting the best, that's all we all want at the end of the day.
I don't blame you for wanting the best, that's all we all want at the end of the day.
imagebeastmarkbeast
New member
@plamp I don't know for sure if there are actually any real veterinary nutrionists or scientists that frequent this sub. What I do know is that now that you've said Orijen and Acana you are going to get copy pasted some 2017-2018 talking points that make RC, PPP, and Hills looks great and Orijen/Acana look like the four horsemen of the apocalypse.
Because I know this is coming, I will submit the following for your counter-review:
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...work-potential-causes-non-hereditary-dcm-dogs
"Historically, DCM has been primarily linked to a genetic predisposition in certain breeds, but emerging science appears to indicate that non-hereditary forms of DCM occur in dogs as a complex medical condition that may be affected by the interplay of multiple factors such as genetics, underlying medical conditions, and diet. Aspects of diet that may interact with genetics and underlying medical conditions may include nutritional makeup of the ingredients and how dogs digest them, ingredient sourcing, processing, formulation, and/or feeding practices."
"Most of the diets associated with the reports of non-hereditary DCM have legume seed ingredients, also called “pulses” (e.g., peas, lentils, etc.), high in their ingredient lists (although soy is a legume, we did not see a signal associated with this ingredient). These include both “grain-free” and grain-containing formulations. Legumes, including pulse ingredients, have been used in pet foods for many years, with no evidence to indicate they are inherently dangerous, but analysis of data reported to CVM indicates that pulse ingredients are used in many “grain-free” diets in greater proportion than in most grain-containing formulas. FDA has asked pet food manufacturers to provide diet formulations so we can further understand the proportions of ingredients in commercially-available diets and possible relationships with non-hereditary DCM.
The FDA does not know the specific connection between these diets and cases of non-hereditary DCM and is continuing to explore the role of genetics, underlying medical conditions, and/or other factors."
"8. Is this an issue with only grain-free diets or diets containing legumes or pulses?
No. FDA has received reports of non-hereditary DCM associated with both grain-free and grain-containing diets. Most of the diets associated with reports of non-hereditary DCM have non-soy legumes and pulses (e.g., peas, lentils, etc.) high in their ingredient lists. However, it is important to note that legumes and pulses have been used in pet foods for many years, with no evidence to indicate they are inherently dangerous. CVM’s data show that pulse ingredients are likely used in many “grain-free” diets in greater proportion than in most grain-containing formulas."
"FDA has no definitive information indicating that the diets are inherently unsafe and need to be removed from the market, but we are continuing to work with stakeholders in assessing how the diets may interact with other factors that may be impacting non-hereditary DCM. We encourage pet owners to work with their veterinarians, who may consult with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist, prior to making diet changes. We also encourage veterinarians to review the proceedings of the KSU symposium in order to learn more about non-hereditary DCM. FDA continues to pursue scientific understanding of non-hereditary DCM and welcomes additional contributions from other scientists."
Just remember to come back and check this right after they try and scare you with all the saving face from three years ago.
Because I know this is coming, I will submit the following for your counter-review:
https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterina...work-potential-causes-non-hereditary-dcm-dogs
"Historically, DCM has been primarily linked to a genetic predisposition in certain breeds, but emerging science appears to indicate that non-hereditary forms of DCM occur in dogs as a complex medical condition that may be affected by the interplay of multiple factors such as genetics, underlying medical conditions, and diet. Aspects of diet that may interact with genetics and underlying medical conditions may include nutritional makeup of the ingredients and how dogs digest them, ingredient sourcing, processing, formulation, and/or feeding practices."
"Most of the diets associated with the reports of non-hereditary DCM have legume seed ingredients, also called “pulses” (e.g., peas, lentils, etc.), high in their ingredient lists (although soy is a legume, we did not see a signal associated with this ingredient). These include both “grain-free” and grain-containing formulations. Legumes, including pulse ingredients, have been used in pet foods for many years, with no evidence to indicate they are inherently dangerous, but analysis of data reported to CVM indicates that pulse ingredients are used in many “grain-free” diets in greater proportion than in most grain-containing formulas. FDA has asked pet food manufacturers to provide diet formulations so we can further understand the proportions of ingredients in commercially-available diets and possible relationships with non-hereditary DCM.
The FDA does not know the specific connection between these diets and cases of non-hereditary DCM and is continuing to explore the role of genetics, underlying medical conditions, and/or other factors."
"8. Is this an issue with only grain-free diets or diets containing legumes or pulses?
No. FDA has received reports of non-hereditary DCM associated with both grain-free and grain-containing diets. Most of the diets associated with reports of non-hereditary DCM have non-soy legumes and pulses (e.g., peas, lentils, etc.) high in their ingredient lists. However, it is important to note that legumes and pulses have been used in pet foods for many years, with no evidence to indicate they are inherently dangerous. CVM’s data show that pulse ingredients are likely used in many “grain-free” diets in greater proportion than in most grain-containing formulas."
"FDA has no definitive information indicating that the diets are inherently unsafe and need to be removed from the market, but we are continuing to work with stakeholders in assessing how the diets may interact with other factors that may be impacting non-hereditary DCM. We encourage pet owners to work with their veterinarians, who may consult with a board-certified veterinary nutritionist, prior to making diet changes. We also encourage veterinarians to review the proceedings of the KSU symposium in order to learn more about non-hereditary DCM. FDA continues to pursue scientific understanding of non-hereditary DCM and welcomes additional contributions from other scientists."
Just remember to come back and check this right after they try and scare you with all the saving face from three years ago.
@imagebeastmarkbeast It’s funny but I actually know exactly what that is just looking at the link. I have printed it out and I have it in a folder in the pet store that I work at to show customers.
I personally agree very much with that side of the science with what I have learned in the last few years in my position. I’m wondering if there is something else that can broaden my understanding if there’s anything that I’ve missed to see it from both sides (not just DCM but quality overall). In my position I don’t get any benefit to suggesting Orijen/Acana/Go etc but from what I’ve learned they just seem like the better options.
I personally agree very much with that side of the science with what I have learned in the last few years in my position. I’m wondering if there is something else that can broaden my understanding if there’s anything that I’ve missed to see it from both sides (not just DCM but quality overall). In my position I don’t get any benefit to suggesting Orijen/Acana/Go etc but from what I’ve learned they just seem like the better options.
gabriel201
New member
@plamp To me Royal Canin is the biggest scam in the pet food industry. When I look at their ingredients, at least in EU, I’d place them right there with Pedigree or Darling. The price just doesn’t add up to the ingredients list and their aggressive marketing is awful. They sponsor hunting events and such. Most vets in my area are Royal Canin exclusive and it’s pretty hard to find a vet where they have other types of food. My vet doesn’t keep Royal Canin and that’s one of the reasons I chose them to treat my fur babies, even if they’re across the city.
I’d take any day Orijen or Acana over RC or Purina just by looking at the ingredients.
Good post here, I hope some nutritionists chip in with their knowledge. On another post there was a person stating they have credentials in the area, so we know there’s at least one expert on the matter.
Edit: Never heard of Go in my region.
I’d take any day Orijen or Acana over RC or Purina just by looking at the ingredients.
Good post here, I hope some nutritionists chip in with their knowledge. On another post there was a person stating they have credentials in the area, so we know there’s at least one expert on the matter.
Edit: Never heard of Go in my region.
@gabriel201 I'm curious what ingredients you have issues with.
People seem unable to identify quality ingredients from a scientific perspective, instead they think "I wouldn't want to eat that" despite it being very nutritious.
People seem unable to identify quality ingredients from a scientific perspective, instead they think "I wouldn't want to eat that" despite it being very nutritious.
gabriel201
New member
@xavier363 Well I will compare RC with Orijen original top 5 ingredients:
RC: dry chicken protein, corn flour, corn, wheat flour, animal fat
Orijen: fresh chicken meat, fresh turkey meat, fresh eggs, fresh chicken liver, fresh whole herring
I don’t mind grains in the ingredients, but the RC is obviously a grain/cereal based diet. They produce a larger amount of food cheaper and sell it as super premium. This is not a reasonable amount of cereal for a dog’s diet in my opinion due to way too many carbohydrates, lack of whole grains. It seems they are trying to substitute protein, good dog foods have moderate level of carbs. If it’s used to this extent it will create some problems in the long run. If you look down on the ingredients list you find fish oil, what type of fish oil? I would like to know exactly what I am feeding my dog, they seem sketchy.
Just my 2 cents, I have this view based on discussions with vets and after reading for the last 8-9 years. My dog is old and has some health issues, his diet is really important and that’s why I am interested in this topic.
RC: dry chicken protein, corn flour, corn, wheat flour, animal fat
Orijen: fresh chicken meat, fresh turkey meat, fresh eggs, fresh chicken liver, fresh whole herring
I don’t mind grains in the ingredients, but the RC is obviously a grain/cereal based diet. They produce a larger amount of food cheaper and sell it as super premium. This is not a reasonable amount of cereal for a dog’s diet in my opinion due to way too many carbohydrates, lack of whole grains. It seems they are trying to substitute protein, good dog foods have moderate level of carbs. If it’s used to this extent it will create some problems in the long run. If you look down on the ingredients list you find fish oil, what type of fish oil? I would like to know exactly what I am feeding my dog, they seem sketchy.
Just my 2 cents, I have this view based on discussions with vets and after reading for the last 8-9 years. My dog is old and has some health issues, his diet is really important and that’s why I am interested in this topic.