I don’t know what to do at this point

[sally_wheeler]

This is messy and not well written im just really sad over how my last walk went and I don’t know what to do anymore. I have a 6 month GSD and it’s been confirmed by 2 trainers through the use of first a fake dog and then demo dogs that her reactivity is not fear based and it’s not aggression. She just has no clue how to say hi to dogs without lunging and barking at them and once she gets to say hi she stops. She does amazing at her socialization classes and is such a good and polite gal to the other puppies it’s literally only when on leash.
Obviously I don’t allow on leash interactions and never have which makes this issue so much more annoying because I never did anything to make her think this behaviour was acceptable. I do all the threshold training, i read every post in this sub and try to tweak stuff to make it work her, I’ve taken reactive dog classes but after the first session she knows the dogs and doesn’t really care so it’s like not that useful idk.

ANYWAYS my point is she’s now way too strong for me and I’m having trouble physically managing her reactions, I try to be proactive by walking her at weird times and avoiding places with lots of a dogs and reactive when I see a dog (u turns, touch game, 1-2-3 games the whole nine yards) but it doesn’t matter if a dog surprises her or she gets fixated there’s absolutely no way of getting her back I could have a whole raw chicken and she wouldn’t give a f. I’ve tried steak, chicken, hotdogs, cheese, cheese whiz, green tripe, wet cat food, even resorted to wearing gloves and trying raw food, you name a high value reward and I’ve probably tried it. She does ~okay when i use her favourite toy but sometimes the dog is just too exciting And She doesn’t care.

So now what? She accidentally bruised my wrist lunging at a dog and I can barely hold on. I would never put her in a slip lead because well obviously it’s bad for them but also I think the more she pulls the more barrier frustration builds so it just would make it worse I just don’t know what to do anymore people i know suggested a prong but I don’t want to get a prong or anything because that’s just not aligned with my morals and she really is a great dog and has been doing so well with R+. The trainers I saw said I need to work on loose leash walking but this dog is the best at it literally loose leash at all times in all environments until there’s dog so I just don’t know where to go from here and every walk ends with me in tears just frustrated and sad. People stare like I have no control over my dog and give me dirty looks because she’s big and scary looking and i totally get it but if you saw me working her in the field you wouldn’t believe her OB like she just got her sit in motion, we can do off leash figure 8 heeling, her impulse control is so good with waiting for me to release her when throwing the ball for retrieving literally the best girl, so eager to please and loves to work but if we’re just walking and we see another dog it’s just a free for all.

Idk if this is a rant or not but I’m totally open to ideas I am just lost and sad

 

[bunkerbuster91]

@sally_wheeler First off mega mega kudos for all the work you've already put in with your pup, and your decision to stand by R+ only even in the face of a situation where ManWhoKnowsDogs™ would tell you all his problems were solved by putting a prong / slip / head collar on a dog.

The only thing you can really do at this point is more work around thresholds, and getting her to disengage once she's clocked the dog at a distance, but is still able to refocus on you.

What kind of distance are you talking when she goes absolutely bananas at seeing another dog and wanting to interact? It sounds like you'll need to go 'back to basics' on this front and just do the engage/disengage game at a distance, and work to encourage neutrality.

Also maybe some socialisation walks with a stooge / neutral dog, so she learns to also walk calmly around other dogs and to build a habit of not constantly seeking interaction?

She's still very young, and probably still in her hyper-social phase where other dogs are super exciting to her, so time will also be your friend here as she matures.

Secondly, honestly screw other people and their nasty looks - you're literally doing EVERYTHING to give her the best start, and their opinions are not a reflection of the amount of work you've put in!

 

[studentinprayer]

@sally_wheeler Might be a good idea to look into different types of harnesses! A front clipping harness, freedom harness, and gentle leader harness are a few to start with. See which one you think would work best and try it out, it might help you handle her a bit more easily.

 

[hollywoodbowles]

@studentinprayer I agree w/harness front clip… have a highly reactive 6.5 yr old, female, 120lb. , Great Pyrenees while on a leash. We walk later ( 830ish) to avoid other dog walkers. She loose leash walks great until she spots that dog a block down… then she’s out of her mind. We muzzle trained her because she would redirect and nip us during those reactive times. It’s tough but we have had to accept this…love the bitch.

 

[felipeoliveir]

@studentinprayer I've never dealt with this level of reactivity so not sure it would work, but I was also thinking harness front clip, or maybe halti/head collar?

 

[smod]

@sally_wheeler First, wow! That is a lot to deal with for anyone.

I can hear how much love and commitment you have poured into your dog, and on top of that, you are sticking to your guns and advocating for your dog to be treated with compassion.

You are an incredible dog guardian, the kind that so many reactive dogs may only every dream about. You get all the props from me!

Adolescence is a bitch. Really and truly, even dogs with steady, non-reactive temperaments can be absolute gremlins at this stage. She may also be in her second fear period around now which doesn’t help much either.

German shepherds, from what I understand anyway, usually hit maturity around 2 years old. Lots of dogs settle down when they hit maturity. This won’t necessarily be the magic resolution to all your problems per say, but know that with consistent care and training as you are, she may have a positive shift when she ages up.

Is your dog muzzle trained? Muzzling might give you some peace of mind knowing your dog will be much less likely to do damage even in the worst case scenario. People may also offer you more space when they see your dog is muzzled. (If you are concerned she is a real bite risk, make sure you are buying a truly biteproof muzzle)

Medication may also be worth talking with your vet about.

Have you looked into BAT? It sounds like you might benefit from a trainer who can help you work on increasing your dog’s threshold with other dogs rather than working on loose leash walking. The real problem doesn’t sound like it’s with her leash manners, it’s with her feelings about other dogs.

You are fighting the good fight, keep at it!

 

[sally_wheeler]

@smod She’s muzzle trained and does great with it but it really does nothing for the reaction and because it’s not dog aggression and she was to get loose she would just go to say hi and probably just submissive roll on her back I would hate if that did happen and the dog she went up wasn’t nice and she couldn’t defend herself I would be so sad for her. I’m going to continue working under her threshold and walking with other people and their well trained dogs I hope it’s just adolescence that’s making her wig out

 

[hollywoodbowles]

@sally_wheeler Sounds just like my girl

 

[monk58]

@sally_wheeler You sound like you are working so well with her and she is so young.

I have a leash frustrated dog and the thing that helped me at the beginning more than anything was distance from other dogs. That let him engage and do his look at me self control training with a clicker and super high value treats. It did get better over a couple of months and now we are down to metres .... about the distance across a road with a good treat in my hand as extra incentive to focus and keep walking

I think you need time and distance. Find a nice big open park and go at off times? So you can see. She can see. Playing fields are good as well. Urban areas are way more triggering. Keep the excitment that causes the pulling down to a minimum. Make her think I see a dog I look at you... I get chicken. Its the look you want to help them self regulate. Masses of distance is your friend. For a couple of months we just went to a park. Sat on a remote bench looking across the open space and I just fed him chicken while he watched the dogs in the distance. Is there some where like that you could use?

Encouraging more sniffing was another thing that helped. It seemed to help him calm if we played hunt the food in the grass witha scatter or indeed in the same time period I took him just on sniffy walks where there weren't likely to be other dogs. Miles along the river or forest and I think it helped him

I use a padded perfect fit harness with him on the front chest ring now however for a few months when he was really struggling I did use a halt head collar. Not to stop pulling... indeed I was setting him up for success by keeping him under threshold but to help him focus on me... and just keep in touch.

I am a big advocate of letting a dog have thinking time. My trainer taught me that. Often giving him thirty seconds looking at the dog from a distance then doing disengagement or lure away really seemed to help him keep from exploding in frustration

I also paired up with my trainers excellent older dog and walking with then and practicing on them really helped. I wish I could do more of that. It taught him more social manners and reading the room. I am taking him to an dogs class now and it is really helping him. Outside so we can spread out but but letting him develop self control and to return to a boundary to self regulate Maybe there is a suitable class near you? Let them build up their social manners in a very controlled setting?

How to help with the strength and lunging though. To a great extent management and keeping her below threshold with distance: avoiding opportunities to lunge because lunging is self reinforcing and dogs do get emotional reward from it

I would say try the head collar. See what a trainer thinks about it suitability with her age? They are cheap enough if it doesn't work you haven't lost anything It might only be for a few months to get through a training stage like mine was.

Other than that a good strong lead like a halti on the chest ring of a well fitted harness. I don't use the back ring except with a long line. He has too much power on his back

The rest is keep below threshold near dogs with distance and do as many self control games of all sorts as you can to help her just as routine micro lessons and fun play.

You sound great and you will get there. It was like a jigsaw puzzle .. all the pieces of training work gradually seemed to help each other and then fit together to see him emotionally change... it takes quite a while though

Just sharing to make you feel better I just had my dog who is doing well with training ping out my hand to bound up and play with a friend dog he knew tonight.

Eek

I had the leash looped round my wrist and just didn't see quick enough to strengthen my grip. It happens to the best of us! Careless of me and ouch bent my wrist. Nothing bad happened because he is a friendly idiot but it is a reminder to me of even now he still has his moments!

Please don't be hard on yourself. You are really doing well and bonding to your pup and playing. It is a lot of work and a hard stage but you will get there

Edited to add there is no way I would even consider a prong collar on a 6 month old pup or really any dog. She sounds in a very normal stage and it would do nothing to help her develop emotionally and regulate her feelings.

 

[lonnie159]

@sally_wheeler I’m in a very similar position with my 3.5 year old GSD rescue, Loki. She walks so well when it’s just us, but as soon as she sees another dog she goes nuts. I’ve had my finger dislocated, been dragged across fields, given a concussion, all sorts. My behaviourist now wants her to be assessed for neurological damage as she seems to almost get confused in her reactions.

I don’t have any advice, I just wanted you to know that you’re not alone and to stay strong

 

[kittyc]

@sally_wheeler Absolutely agree that a prong collar or slip collar is unnecessary. Your dog is just having a tantrum because she is getting overwhelmed by her feelings about the other dog. You sound like you are doing great with everything else and just stuck on this one thing, and have formed an awesome connection with your pup. Don't give up.

There are a couple gear ideas that might help your dog. A head halter is one. Because you only need to pivot the head, you have a ton of leverage this way (much like with a horse) and can turn a larger dog much more easily. The downside of head halters is that if the dog lunges suddenly and builds up a little momentum before they hit the end of that leash, it can easily cause a neck injury. The solution is to use a second leash for emergency stopping power attached to a harness, and only put tension on the head halter when you can do it smoothly, like after the harness has slowed the dog enough there's not a jerking motion. Personally I would try a different option first, but for dogs that outweigh their humans, sometimes you need that level of turning power.

A good front ring harness is safer. I like the 2 Hounds Freedom Harness a lot. The dog's body pivots around the chest ring, although this can slide a bit especially on some body types. Usually it's enough to pretty easily keep the dog from making progress. I don't like their sliding double-ended leash unless you tie a knot to keep the handle from sliding (and it's so short that way), but I do really like having two separate leashes for front and back for training, although you have loose leash walking down so that you probably don't need that.

A bungee leash might be helpful for your poor wrist. They can make pulling feel more effective for the dog because if you don't have your arm muscles activated they can make a little progress from pulling, but you can pretty easily make sure you are pulling back on the leash as they hit the end that you counteract that and it just absorbed the shock of the sudden stop. I am not sure how they work on the front ring of harnesses or on head halters but they are great if you are working with a very pully dog regularly. You can even put a bungee section on a waist belt and go hands-free if your grip is not reliable, although you still have to be careful the dog doesn't tip you over.

For working on this problem, it sounds like you need more practice seeing dogs at a distance and then moving on with life. If you drive, hanging in a car in the distant reaches of a pet store parking lot can be a wonderful way to get started on this. Otherwise, try to find a fenced dog park where you can hang out outside the fence and still see the dogs, but they can get close. Or you can arrange for someone to bring their dog to a place where you can get a lot of space and just hang out far from you, like an empty sports field, park, or something like that. You want to spend this time far enough away that your dog isn't incapable of paying attention to you but can see the dog. Some dogs this isn't actually possible and so you just get as far as you can and wait out the reaction until a very far dog just isn't worth getting excited about because nothing ever happens. There can still be value in desensitization without counterconditioning if you can keep the trigger very mild.

One thing that may be working against you is that it sounds like you are doing all very exciting, high-arousal training. I really struggle with this because I love training and get pretty excited about it myself and prefer working on exciting things with exciting treats, but with a dog who easily gets overwhelmed by excitement, it can be enormously helpful to work on calmness in training and de-escalation of arousal. kikopup on YouTube has great videos on this. Real Dog Yoga by Haffendon could also help, and teaches prosocial signals that will help set your dog up for greetings that are less likely to offend the other dog as well.

I don't think the interpretation that your dog doesn't know how to say hi politely is incorrect because she does all kinds of polite submissive things once she gets close. I think it's more that she just is so overaroused and starting to get frustrated that she can't meet the other dog right this minute that she can't make herself be polite until she is right up in their face, where it's totally natural to start getting a little more cautious about not starting a fight. This is good in one way, because your dog has social skills that will emerge at a distance once she gets ahold of her arousal problems. The danger is that puppies are naturally very submissive when they greet, and that instinct to try to please/placate the other dog will fade as she matures, so if she's not calm when greeting you could very easily get unfriendly greetings instead of friendly ones even once she is up close. Be very careful over the next year as she starts to think like a grown-up dog more when doing greetings, because at some point that switch to submissive behavior might get overwhelmed by her excitement and frustration about greetings. Just something to watch for.

You are doing a really good job. Don't let the glares get to you at all. You are keeping everybody safe, your dog sounds extremely well behaved overall, just big and loud and young. Those people have no idea what you are going through and you don't need to worry about their judgements. It sounds like you're going to have a lovely bulletproof dog once you get this one little thing squared away.

 

[tiernon]

@sally_wheeler Do you have a friend whose dog has excellent leash manners? Dogs have certain instincts about how to communicate via body language, but they can't polish those instincts without interacting with older dogs.

Since your dog is only 6 months old and is good when she's off-leash, maybe she should be permitted the very occasionall on-leash greeting. She's just a baby!

Occasionally walking your dog with another dog would give her an opportunity to watch some model behavior. Honestly, interacting with an adult dog who isn't reactive but also isn't interested in playing is a great learning opportunity for a puppy. Dogs need to learn how to respect each other's boundaries and it's hard for them to do that if they only meet friendly dogs during puppyhood.

 

[donica]

@sally_wheeler Not sure how strong you are, but when my dog gets super over threshold I use the “pick up” method. I get a good hold on the back of her harness and lift just her front paws in the air. It’s actually usually less effort and pulling than letting them lunge around on the leash, and you have total control. Use your good hand for this, naturally and only in severe situations. You can also then “walk” away from the trigger.

I also use a Gentle leader head halter for regular walking and recommend finding a method that you have reliable control for walking.

 

[bluedolphin]

@sally_wheeler Curious to know what you use to walk your dog in?

My 1 y.o staffy x reacts exactly the same when we do not give him enough space between him and other dogs/people that walk past us. Usually if we spot people and dogs heading towards us at least 5m away we will create distance and I will put him in a sit and do engage/disengage exercises and he does so well with distance. However, if people/dogs pop out unexpectedly he will lunge, pull and bark and previously using a backclipping harness he was SO STRONG. I would literally have to grab him by the harness to control him. Recently, I switched to using the front clip harness and i find it gives me so much better control.

 

[iwanttoknowthetruth]

@sally_wheeler Get a gentle lead! 100% changed the way I can walk my 100lb dog now. Make it a positive thing, I always give him a great when I put it on and eventually they will associate it with walks and get excited when you put it on instead of disliking it

 

[jimwoodrow]

@sally_wheeler Try using a gentle leader/ halti. My Labrador loves pulling on his leash and is getting pretty strong for me too. If I need to take him somewhere where he would be overstimulated or If I just have a bad day and I can’t deal with his pulling i put his gentle leader on. He walks perfectly right next to me with almost
No pulling. If he does pull I can easily control his head. It’s not an aversive tool if it’s introduced slowly. Its been a game changer for us and made me so much more confident walking him. I even can go on runs with him using the gentle leader. Without it I could never run with him. He’s also semi reactive to strangers and I have never seen him react with the gentle leader on even in situations that are way too much for him usually.

 

[brorob]

@sally_wheeler I have the same issue almost beat for beat. Mine is a GSD/WSS mix, a little over a year old. He can handle everything else but as soon as he sees another dog there’s nothing that can break him out of that. I had to get the halti head collar when he got so strong I could barely hold him back anymore.