Help needed again- My friend’s GSD mix just attacked her 1 y/o son. She sees nothing wrong with this. Help?

[anadascal]

Hi again, Reddit. Just under a week ago I posted hereto ask for advice on what to do with my friend Sarah (28F) and her dog Jennie (6F).

TL;DR of that post is that Sarah’s son, Zachariah (1M) was given a level 4 bite on his forearm after he stepped on Jennie’s tail accidentally. Sarah has chosen to take no action other than take her son to hospital and looking into “retraining” the dog, despite this dog being a danger.

Slight positive update! Social services have been in touch with Sarah and will be visiting her home next week. The police are apparently monitoring the situation too.

Zac seems to be relatively unharmed, bar the stitches, and as happy as ever (bless his little heart). Sarah has also decided she will be going through with the “retraining” of Jennie, which is apparently going to cost around £10-£15k.

Now, that’s the okay stuff. Here’s what I need more advice on, please, Reddit.

I found out yesterday that 1) Jennie is not spayed. I personally don’t like this choice, but whatever.
EDIT : I did some research after seeing it commented - apparently this doesn’t effect the temperament of female dogs? My bad honestly. I truly thought this could be an issue.

2) that this is her SECOND level 4 bite. The first was on a friend of Sarah’s when he was reaching to pick up Zac from out of his high chair. She leapt on him and bit his leg through his jeans, tearing skin deeply.

3) Sarah’s partner Harry (28M) is firm in his belief that Jennie is okay to stay with baby, “this could’ve happened to anyone” and “it’s just an accident - Jennie didn’t mean any harm”.

I’ve tried so hard to be supportive of Sarah during this time since Jennie bit her baby, but I truly don’t know how to keep her from making the mistake of her life. All of her friends and family that know about this second incident have either insulted her, attacked her verbally, or abandoned her totally. She’s still minimising the situation and is refusing to listen to anyone the moment something negative or critical is said.

How on Earth can I get through to this woman? Please help, Reddit. I’m scared I’ll either lose her as a friend if I don’t do this right, or she’ll lose her only son and I’ll be sending her letters in prison.

 

[kustererdgaf]

@anadascal Ultimately, there isn’t that much you can do. It isn’t your dog or son so your options are very limited. I’d kindly relay your concerns and hope for the best. Maybe if she can tell it’s from a place of love she’ll listen better but I’d go into it reminding yourself that this isn’t your problem to necessarily solve. Best wishes!

 

[passat61]

@anadascal Have you contacted the animal welfare/RSPCA about this to report that it has happened? They can actually get involved to get the dog taken away if they can prove it's too dangerous and that Sarah is not fit for the dog. They'll usually decide what to do after that, which I think might end up in BE, considering Jennie attacked a 1 year old and gave the kid a level 4 bite. If this was anywhere but the arm, the kid could have died. The next bite, might just kill the kid and then they could be in court for this.

Honestly, report it to the animal welfare/RPSCA, tell them everything you know and if you know where proof is about the bites, tell them they can check in with the involved party and to get in touch with child services. I'd also consider calling the police and report them for child endangerment if they are unwilling to remove Jennie from their household and thus put their kid in danger. Edit: I don't know how I missed it, but police seems to be already involved, but it might be crucial to give them the extra info nonetheless.

One level 4 bite is already bad, but a second one is even worse. This dog cannot be kept in that household and needs to be removed.

Unfortuantely, you can't do much otherwise, except for going through the official channels. Sarah and Harry seem to be too delusional to understand the gravity of the situation and in how much danger everyone is around the dog, especially their kid. Don't think of it as a risk of loosing your friend, but as a risk of a kids life being lost.

 

[childman]

@anadascal A level 4 bite is a pretty high level bite. Most aggression experts will say that the prognosis is pretty poor for retraining (of which I have doubts about). I have a (dog) aggressive dog, I would never, ever trust that dog around a child again, no matter how much training it has gone through or what guarantees are given.

If they want to keep the dog, they would need to commit to really stringent management - at least two barriers between dog and child at all times. And even then, management can fail.

My brother was bitten by a much smaller dog as a child (probably a level 2 or 3 bite, no medical attention needed) and since the dog was older and my mom adored her, they kept her but kept her separate from us (also to be fair, he did provoke the dog). My own dog aggressive dog doesn't have a bite history but I don't allow him around children because I know he can be temperamental and it's honestly not worth the risk.

IMO, the biggest concern here is that both parents don't seem bothered by the incident at all.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@anadascal Whaaaat is that woman even on that she thinks that dog is safe around kids?

 

[kari91373]

@anadascal What's alarming to me is both bites involved the baby. Thankfully the baby wasn't bitten the first time but clearly it had something to do with that person taking the baby out of the high chair. This means the baby is at the center of Jennie's problems! That's seriously alarming and I'm going to say it again, you're right to be concerned!

I had suggested on your first post that the dog gets rehomed to someone experienced, your friend puts in the time, effort, and money to intervene drastically and retrain the dog herself, or unfortunately she should do BE before the worst case scenario happens and someone else gets hurt and the dog is put down anyway. I did also warn of her being charged with negligent homicide if Jennie kills the baby, and that's still a very real concern. How does someone get the police and child services involved because of their dog BITING their BABY and they still downplay the severity of it?! I don't understand her, but I'll try to offer some suggestions anyway

My biggest thoughts on keeping the baby safe if she's deadset on retraining the dog is management. Anyone who knows anything about safety with anxious/reactive/aggressive dogs practices really good management

The dog and the baby should not be allowed in the same room right now. No Exceptions

Until they can find the root cause of why the bites are happening and resolve that, they need to be kept separate. Identifying the problem and resolving it will involve a professional evaluating Jennie's relationship with the baby. Little Z appears to be at the heart of Jennie's aggression problems and because of that, if it were me in Sarah's shoes, I'd personally choose to rehome Jennie to a child-free home with experienced owners who can also do the training she needs. I mean, a child's life is hanging in the balance here. As much as I adore my dogs, a child's life should come first. I can't stress enough that if Sarah pursues retraining Jennie herself, she will need to keep little Z and Jennie separated and plan to do so for months while Jennie is worked with

Things like baby gates, crates, and doors are excellent management tools for this. Playpens for the baby might also work. The key thing here is the dog doesn't have enough access to the baby for a bite to even happen. This type of management ensures everyone's safety. No, it's not easy. In fact it's often unpleasant... But it's not a permanent thing, it's just to make sure everyone is safe until proper evaluations, medication, behavior modification, and training is on board and everyone (not just Sarah and her partner but the professionals involved) feel safe to reintroduce the two. That baby is a precious little thing, and I love dogs dearly and know they are precious too, so if Sarah loves them, she will not allow for there to be any possibility of either of them getting hurt. OP, you seem to genuinely care about this situation and your friend, so please, get this message across to her in some way. Show your concern and support but make sure she understands how serious this is

I very firmly believe this dog needs a thorough vet check as soon as possible. Sarah should get scheduled for the soonest appointment, then go into the appointment with her vet and ask for an extensive physical exam, basic lab work to screen for any potential health issues, and she should specifically ask to get Jennie's thyroid checked through a blood test as well (thyroid problems are linked to aggression in dogs). She should tell her vet that Jennie has displayed some aggressive behaviors lately and that she's concerned. She doesn't have to go into any more detail than that. From there, the vet and your friend should be able to figure out if Jennie has a health condition causing any problems. If they find pain, allergies, irritation, injury, or illness of any kind, it could certainly be playing into or even causing Jennie's aggressive behavior. Training and behavior modification won't fix the discomfort Jennie is feeling if there is something going on with her health

If everything comes back clean at the vet, this is where I recommend that Sarah asks her vet about anxiety meds. These bites sound like something sets Jennie off and she reacts rapidly, out of fear. Medication is VITAL in treating dogs with anxiety and/or aggression. I own, raise, and rehabilitate GSDs. This breed is exceptionally prone to anxiety issues. 99% of the time you have a GSD or GSD mix with aggression it's related to anxiety. Being highstrung and stressed out is basically written in their DNA. Heck, one of my current GSDs gave herself premature atrial contractions (a heart problem that if left unaddressed can damage her heart!) from being too stressed and anxious. Medication NEEDS to be on board with this dog. There is no cutting corners here, not even to spare Sarah's feelings as an owner. This is purely about Jennie's well being and ability to learn and overcome. Dogs react when they feel fear, they don't hear you or smell you or acknowledge you in any way, they just react. Getting Jennie more calm will help her overall health and well being plus make training and behavior modification easier (not to mention less stressful) for Jennie

Training and behavior modification can and should begin ASAP while Sarah is getting all the vet stuff sorted. Ensure that 10-15k she plans to spend is spent on a good positive reinforcement trainer. Aversives like shock collars, prong collars, popping with the leash to correct, alpha role based training, etc SHOULD NOT BE USED. They will make Jennie more anxious and more aggressive. These methods can work to teach the dog to stop behavior but they also teach the dog unwanted things like being fearful of the owners or even making fear of their triggers (in this case, the baby) worse. Sarah does not want that to happen, I can guarantee that. A good rule of thumb is, if you wouldn't do it to the baby, don't do it to the dog. Positive reinforcement is all about rewards and encouragement. It builds confidence, independence, and problem solving. It teaches and rewards inhibition and encourages curiosity. This will get at the heart of Jennie's problems and make her a happy and more well behaved dog overall

I guess I'll leave you with a final caveat. Sarah should not be the one to decide when the management and separation of the baby and Jennie stops. She's proven herself to be too close to the situation and her mind is clouded by affection. This is very normal for owners and completely understandable. However, bringing the baby and Jennie back together too soon could have catastrophic results. A trainer or behavioral consultant should instruct Sarah on how and when to reintroduce the two. It's very likely that they will have to follow specific rules for reintroduction and that time spent with the two in the same area will be short at first and increase slowly over time to longer intervals of being around each other

This will not be easy for Sarah. It's a huge pain in the butt honestly. In my opinion, this is the only way through this without endangering both baby and dog though. So, she needs to follow this plan of action vehemently and never let her guard down, no matter how tempting or how much progress Jennie has made. She needs to designate that with herself upfront so that she doesn't make a mistake that leads to little Z getting hurt

Best of luck with everything. I hope you are able to get through to her!

 

[aminadab]

@kari91373 The OP said that Jenny bit after the baby stepped on her tail accidentally, so it is not a bite out of the blue. Still more training is needed and maybe separate the kid and the dog from now on.

 

[jennynifer]

@anadascal 1) Walk away from her. Tell her why.

2) Let the police and CPS do their jobs.

3) Did you also notify Animal Control?

 

[keobong79]

@anadascal I’d lose the friend and let the cops know it’s a second serious bite

 

[sarahtoo]

@anadascal A level 4 bite from a GSD (multiple punctures, one at least half the depth of a canine, with lacerations from head shaking) on a 1 year old? How does he still have an arm attached?

 

[carolie97]

@anadascal I know this is old and outdated, but the standard used to be once a dog has drawn blood it’s time for behavioral euthanasia. That dog is not going to ever get better with her attitude, so if she doesn’t want to get professional help for the dog, BE is her only option. Dog or child. What does she choose to protect.