Feedback on leash training strategy

kingoffrogs

New member
I have 2 dogs. A senior 12 yr old terrier mix & 10 mo Frenchton. The senior dog loose leash walks no big deal - probably b/c he's calmer just due to age. The puppy walks on a leash, but pulls significantly. I don't have time in my schedule to walk them both separately. I either have to take them both together or only 1. I find it difficult to loose leash train the puppy while walking the senior dog b/c i stop a lot, have a weird pace in general plus reinforcing with treats which of course the senior dog wants them too. Also, I'm having trouble with front lead harness b/c of her narrow shoulders & wide belly they just flip around her. I've tried multiple ones with no luck so i don't think this is an option for me to limit the pulling.

Would it be counterproductive to set this schedule with my puppy for training? Will it be enough for her to learn or is it an "all or none" type thing and i need to work on it for all sessions.

Morning Walk: Both Dogs - no training; just enjoy being a dog

AM/PM 15 min breaks (and/or Lunch Time walk): Train w/ just puppy

Evening Walk: training w/ just puppy

I'm open to any suggestions and feedback.
 
@kingoffrogs Harness that will fit your dog better without moving around, will prevent escapes and will be much more comfortable than a "no pull" harness - Ruffwear Flagline or Ruffwear Webmaster.

No pull harnesses are the bane of my existence. I deeply dislike how blatantly uncomfortable they are. No one learns best by being uncomfortable. Additionally, they can affect a dog's natural gait enough to cause physiological issues in the long run. I've got a friend in vet sports med (basically dog physical therapy) and she doesn't enjoy what those harnesses have done to some clients.

Can you detail what you've attempted to do to teach your puppy loose leash walking other than stopping a lot during pulling? What else are you doing on your walks?
 
@tdselector She has a nice fitting harness so I’m okay with that…

I give her treats down at my side as we walk to entice her to stay by me. If she goes TOO forward that pulls I stop and bring her back to my side with a treat lure. This is only during our alone walks bc I find it difficult to do while also walking my senior dog. My main question is if it’s okay that 1 of her 3 or 4 walks a day doesn’t include this training. How much am I hurting myself with progression?
 
@kingoffrogs Sorry, might have misread - I thought it sounded like you were having trouble finding a harness that was fitting correctly, and then I saw mention of not being able to use a no-pull harness. You definitely don't want to go that route as an option, just for your general information. :)

You would technically be hurting yourself on progress, but how much is fully dependent on the dog. It's going to be a bit confusing for pup, but might not be too bad. Perhaps a usable solution if the plan were to work extra hard on this and make enough progress during the alone walks that you'd soon be able to do this training when you have both dogs, in the not too distant future. Don't aim for loose leash perfection - aim for "good enough that the training can be done with other dog there". The sooner you get to the point of training consistently on every walk, the better.

For the loose leash training - less luring, more games that build engagement. You don't ever want to fall into the vicious cycle of having to dangle and lure with a treat to get the behavior you're after. That can be difficult to undo. The order should always be the desirable behavior is demonstrated and THEN the treat (or other reinforcement) appears. Teach these three things for best success: 1) dog learns super fun games happen when dog is near you and leash is loose, 2) actively train the behavior you want from your dog when they feel leash tension and 3) provide an alternative way for your pup to ask for side explorations without having to pull to try to ask.

1) Channel your best possible impression of a preschool teacher on a playground. Be animated and interesting. Praise and talk to your dog. Develop a "keep going" cue that indicates they're on the right track (I say "yayyyy"). Click and treat for check-ins. When dog is near you, launch into frequent games. Rounds of 123 game, counting steps or other pattern games. Praise and sudden treat scatters. Saying your dog's name and tossing a treat in a random direction. Asking for hand targeting. Change your walking speed slower and faster at random and praise and treat for responsiveness to the pace change. In short - do more to be awesome and create motivation for your dog to stay tuned in to see what crazy things you might do next. I recommend Leslie McDevitt's Control Unleashed program.

2) You want leash tension to be a cue in itself. When the dog feels it, what do you want? Decide what that is, shape it, and be ready to reinforce it tons. Dogs understand "do this" way more readily than they understand "don't do that". Turn leash tension into a cue. Mine was taught to slow down and then glance at me for a treat. Mostly he now just slows down and doesn't need the treat, but that wasn't the first step.

3) Dogs are dogs. They are going to encounter nearby smells that they just so very badly want to go investigate. If you've taught them that you expect them to stay glued to your side at all times with no deviation, they aren't going to stop having some of their own doggie desires and goals. Instead, all that will happen is that they'll resort to trying to attain their goals in the only way that comes naturally - trying to throw themselves at it. You don't want their goals and your goals to be a mutually exclusive situation. Provide tools for another way to ask. When my dog encounters something out of reach that he wants us to go to, he'll veer towards it, come to a stop as soon as he feels leash tension, back up a step and then stand looking at his goal. If he does this without jumping the gun and surging forward prematurely, I will release him with an OK and we will go over together. He's relaxed and happy and loose leash because he knows he doesn't have to try to steal and snatch at investigations that he wants. He has a way to ask that he knows is reliable. Pulling never gets him there - backing up and waiting DOES get him there. So, he does the latter.

Hope this helps you!
 
@tdselector how did you train the slowing down?

Today was better at training. She's a smaller dog so instead of me bending down to give her treats, i've dropped them on the ground next to me. If she went too far forward and there was tension i would stop until she had a loose leash or if she was too focused on something else i'd lure her back to my side.
 
@kingoffrogs Mostly the slow down was trained via capturing. Independently of leash tension, I'd look for moments that he'd slow his pace and was ready to immediately mark and reinforce those moments. Then, I added a cue word and used it when I predicted he was about to slow down. Cue was "woahhhh" in my case. Low toned and calm and drawn out, like you say to a horse. When he had learned to associate the cue word "woahhhh" with slowing down, I could ask him for it in more specific circumstances - like at the top of stairs, or when I felt leash pressure. I'd feel pressure, ask for a "woah", he'd slow his pace, I'd click and treat as he turned around excitedly. Over time I changed the schedule of reinforcement until he didn't expect or need the treat every time, after the slow down behavior. Then, I stopped needing to say "woahhhh" associated with leash pressure and that became the cue by itself to slow down. Often, he doesn't bother glancing back for the treat because he's more interested in the walk. If he does, I usually give it to him.

I still use "woahhhh" as his slow down cue in other specific contexts, but leash pressure serves the same function now.

Again - would not recommend treat luring. Did you have any thoughts about my other comment, concerning methods of building engagement with your dog, not providing the treat until after the behavior, and teaching an alternative way besides pulling, for the dog to ask you to go somewhere?

Staccato walks where you jerk to a stop over and over and over again do very little on their own, besides create emotional frustration for your dog. You should be doing everything possible to avoid having to come to a stop.
 

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