Fading puppy syndrome?

[blackgold00]

I’m supposed to be getting a F1 Maltipoo puppy in four weeks. For context, I already have one dog (same parents) from this breeder who is almost two years old and healthy. I decided to go to the same breeder for my second dog because I had a good experience working with her the first time around.

The puppy I’m supposed to get is now 6 weeks old. There was only one other puppy in her litter, and a few days ago the breeder told me that the second puppy passed away due to fading puppy syndrome. She said that the mom’s milk was fine and that she hadn’t been exposed to any environmental factors that would have caused this, and that the puppy may have just had a congenital defect. She said that my puppy is perfectly healthy, but has not provided any proof or documentation (photos, parasite check, bloodwork, vet records, etc). I’ve only actually seen my puppy twice: in pictures when she was 3 weeks old, and during a brief FaceTime call this past week (when I found out about the deceased littermate).

My questions:
Have you ever experienced this?
What would you do in this situation?
What documentation should I require from the breeder and breeder’s veterinarian before getting a puppy from a litter where the other puppy passed away?

Thank you so much for any and all insight.

 

[cranberry130]

@blackgold00 All of this sounds sketchy AF. Red flags as they appear:

1. I personally would not define anyone breeding and selling mixed breed dogs as a reputable breeder.
2. I was under the impression that fading puppy syndrome occurred in puppies under 2 weeks. And you puppy and their sibling were 5-6 weeks old?
3. How does she know your puppy is perfectly healthy? Did the dogs even go to a vet?
4. Why haven’t you been to meet your puppy yet? Has the “breeder” welcomed you to visit and meet mom and puppy?

How many times has this mom been bred? How many litters is this breeder producing a year? How much is she selling puppies for? Are there other puppies available to buy on her website/petfinder/facebook (meaning she’s breeding more than her waitlist)? Is she breeding more than just “multipoos”?What health documentation did you receive with your first dog from her? What kind health testing is she claiming she completed for mom and dad and puppies?

 

[donnags1964]

@cranberry130 I’m not defending this breeder, but it is possible that the breeder was trying to keep puppy alive as long as possible. My guess is it was another unknown defect that led to the puppy passing- which could explain it passing at 6 weeks.

 

[blackgold00]

@donnags1964 That could make sense as well. My concern in that case is, should I be worried that my puppy could also have an unknown defect that hasn’t manifested yet…

 

[donnags1964]

@blackgold00 It’s hard to say for sure. Many of those issues can be avoided with proper health testing on both dam/sire BEFORE the breed. Can you ask the breeder for proof of appropriate health testing on dam/sire? Mini Poodles should have: PRA, Eye Exam, Hips & Patella x-rays, and a genetic screening. Maltese should have: cardiac, patella X-rays, and genetic screening.

Often times a breeder will say the breeding dogs are healthy with just a routine vet check, but that doesn’t cover MANY potential health issues.

 

[blackgold00]

@donnags1964 Okay that makes sense. Thanks for listing that out, I will ask her whether dam and sire have had all of that health testing. I wish I had known all of this before but so good to know now. If they haven’t had those tests and have just had a routine vet check, would you advise walking away and finding a different breeder? My current dog is healthy but it seems I just got lucky if the proper testing wasn’t done before she was bred.

 

[bossnemo]

@blackgold00 You are very, very unlikely to find a maltipoo breeder who does ANY of that testing. Don't be surprised if this breeder does not. Same goes for any other doodle 'breed'.

 

[blackgold00]

@bossnemo Oh really?? Who then actually does this testing typically? Only purebred breeders?

 

[steffi]

@blackgold00 Yes, ethical breeders making sure they're breeding to the breed standard, which doesn't exist in mixes, especially doodles. It's to make sure they're bettering the breed and avoiding faults.

 

[bossnemo]

@blackgold00 Show breeders, so yes, purebred breeders. 'Back yard breeders' may have pure bred dogs but don't generally test. Show dogs however have to be conformationally sound which requires good joints and 'ethical' breeders don't want to breed in things like eye defects. Your average person who is either just throwing dogs together or breeding for 'hobby' tend to be the ones who say 'my vet says they're healthy and they don't have problems currently so everything is fine'.

It's worth noting that MANY genetic diseases don't actually show up until later in life. If you say how old your current dog is, I missed it.. But quite often joint problems are either missed when young because the dog compensates well or don't really develop until the dog is middle aged. Some heart problems are also only apparent later in life. PRA is progressive retinal atrophy which slowly makes a dog go blind and because dogs often compensate well, it can also take years to become apparent. I used to be much more active in the dog (training and rescue) and heard many cases of owners not knowing there was anything wrong until the dog was almost completely blind. For most, if not all, of these things the dogs can't be reliably tested until they are 2 years of age.

Personally, I would move on. Fading puppy syndrome generally kills puppies within 2 weeks of being born. If this person lost one at 4 to 6 weeks, then it was not a fading puppy and may well have been congenital. Does that mean it's something the entire litter could have? No. Is it enough to put me off these particular dogs and any other puppy coming from these bloodlines? Yes. Unfortunately when you're purposely looking for a mixed breed dog, those are the gambles you take.. And I say this having a maltipoo and 2 other poodle mixes myself.

 

[bailey2017]

@blackgold00 Yes, typically.

Full health testing is expensive. Hips alone can cost hundreds of dollars, depending on your location. On top of this, with mix breed dogs, you need to test for BOTH breeds health issues, which may mean double or triple the cost just to test an f1b mix

It’s sad to say, but many mix-breeders think of health testing as a waste of money. It cuts into their profits, so many have the mindset of “if the vet says nothing is wrong than they’re obviously healthy!” Despite a clean bill from the vet not including physiological issues (like hip dysplasia) or genetic issues (like heart disease)

 

[donnags1964]

@blackgold00 IMO- the BARE MINIMUM a doodle breeder should be doing is appropriate health testing. If she can’t provide you that info, I would walk away.

 

[blackgold00]

@donnags1964 Okay I agree. Thank you. Would you recommend or be able to share any reputable doodle breeders that you know of in the event I need to walk away from this one? I’m still eager to add a second dog to my family but want it to be a HEALTHY one of course. Not sure if you’re a breeder yourself? Thank you!

 

[donnags1964]

@blackgold00 Personally, I don’t believe poodle mixes can be ethical/reputable, and in turn, 99.9% of poodle mix breeders are going to fall short in my eyes.

Curious, what do you like about the Maltese x poodle? Would you be open to exploring a purebred/well bred Maltese? Or a purebred/wellbred poodle?

 

[donnags1964]

@blackgold00 I appreciate your openness and curiosity!

IMO, I believe the doodle craze has gotten out of control. “Designer breeds” is a fancy made up term that unethical breeders use to sell their puppies. Many of those breeders don’t prove their dogs, will do little to no health testing, and still charge the same (if not more) than an ethical purebred counterpart. They are cutting corners yet many still want to be seen as legitimate. Then there is the question of “what does mixing these two breeds bring to the table that the purebred counterparts cannot?”. While I believe companionship CAN be considered a purpose, the question is then “why not a mini poodle, or a Maltese- both of them are amazing companions”. Mixing doesn’t automatically take the best of both breeds.

How much do you know about your current dogs pedigree? Do you know their grandparents and how those dogs passed? What are the temperaments of both the dam/sire of your current dog?

These are questions that answered when purchasing a well bred dog from an ethical breeder.

 

[bossnemo]

@blackgold00 If that's what you like about maltipoos, I HIGHLY suggest looking at toy or mini poodles. They tend to be highly intelligent velcro dogs who really like to please and spend time with their owners.

I don't have any experience with maltese so can't really say much there but I've never gone wrong with a poodle.

 

[andrew742]

@blackgold00 People that breed poodle mixes are backyard breeders. I have not heard of a single "doodle" breeder that does the proper health testing required or titles their dogs. Ethical poodle breeders also don't give dog to backyard breeders. This means that the initial breeding stock of "doodle" breeders is low quality and can be prone to health issues as a result. Breeding two low quality dogs results in puppies of low quality as well.

Furthermore, when you buy a designer mutt there is zero guarantee as to what it's personality is going to turn out like. There is also zero guarantee what it will look like. This is a massive issue with dogs like "golden doodles" which are marketed as non-shedding (which is false).

 

[thewingsoftruth]

@blackgold00 You just described a mini poodle. Just get a mini poodle and let the hair grow out. It’ll look just like a doodle to most people.

 

[klpotte3]

@blackgold00 Doodle breeding is not looking good currently. There are very, very, few doodle breeders that do any health testing, and I've never seen one that does full health testing.

You'll have a much easier time finding a well bred poodle or Maltese.

If you don't like the typical poodle cuts, you can give them a different haircut. Look up poodle teddy bear cut.