E-Collar Positive Associations

[dongfangyufeisss]

Hey friends!

My baby just got back from a 6 week board and train where she was trained with a Dogtra remote collar.

Since then I’ve taken her on many leash free walks, and it’s clear how much she loves the additional freedom, her new excitement for W-A-L-K-S is super clear, but when we get home, she sulks until I take it off, and she shies away from it when I put it on her.

I’m really careful with the settings, she doesn’t get any level that I haven’t used on my own neck, but I fear she’s somehow associated the sensations with punishment rather than the opportunities/rewards that come with good behavior. I’m torn between retraining her positive-only or trying to reassociate the stimulation with good things.

There is a large portion of spitz in her (although how much and of what kind we don’t know yet), so I’m sure some of this is normal spitz behavior, but I don’t know how much. Are remote collars just not a good fit for my pup, or is there a way to help her understand that the discomfort leads to more positives than negatives?

This is my first companion and I just want to do right by her while also making sure she’s well trained enough that I don’t ever have to leave her behind.

Thank you for your advice.

 

[foreverandaday]

@dongfangyufeisss Can you explain how you are using the collar? Like, when are you stimming her (for what behavior, what’s the expected response, and is there any reward other than the stim stopping).

Also, just because it doesn’t feel too strong for YOU doesn’t mean it’s the right setting for your dog. I use a mini educator. My dog works at an 8-10, I cant feel it until 11. My friend’s dog works at a 3, maybe a 5 under distraction.

 

[dongfangyufeisss]

@foreverandaday Absolutely! Trainer’s instructions were to use it on every command, two short stims for movement (down, place, sit, come). One short stim for reminders (stay in down, stay in sit).

The collar goes up to 99 I think? I’ve used up to 20 on myself, normally she operates between 5 and 10 without distractions.

I can incorporate treats, I don’t know why I hadn’t thought to before, but the stim doesn’t get used as punishment so I didn’t think it needed to be counterbalanced by reward. The trainer explained the stim as just communication and I took them at face value.

She gets very distracted sometimes, so I have had to take it up above her normal 5-10 range, so I’m starting to see how she could experience that as punishment even though that’s not my intention.

Edit: I should mention she’s 60 pounds and double coated too.

 

[foreverandaday]

@dongfangyufeisss Ok. So I use stim similarly for recall, however, if the dog is compliant, phase out the stim. It’s there if you need it. From her perspective, she’s getting stimmed without a chance to do the behavior required, and she’s not getting any reward.

Personally, I’d do a lot of fun short sessions with her wearing the collar, but not using it. Probably starting with just putting it on and off. Lots of reward, whatever is valuable to her.

The stim IS a communication tool, but your dog is telling you she absolutely has negative connotations. Unfortunately, many (most?) board and trains are focused on results and it doesn’t really matter what it takes to get them. Your dog was likely trained using the escape theory. This is, fine, in the right hands with the right dog, but it has some significant downsides.

I would switch to avoidance and let the dog learn that she can “beat the stim.” In this way you are using the ecollar the same way you would correct with a leash. Reward the correct response.

To reframe: if you went to work every day and your boss just yelled at you, before you even made a mistake, how long would it be before you hated going into work? Pretty soon just picking up your car keys would fill you with anxiety and dread. You would know that no matter what you did, non matter how perfectly you completed your tasks, at best you were still going to get yelled at.

 

[dongfangyufeisss]

@foreverandaday Super helpful, thank you! Having to explain myself to someone makes errors in my judgement way more visible haha.

So for avoidance type training, I should: command > wait > command and stim? Obviously rewarding generously if she complies without stim.

 

[foreverandaday]

@dongfangyufeisss Yep!

 

[staceyy]

@dongfangyufeisss It is punishment. That’s how aversives work.

If it wasn’t, it wouldn’t work.

 

[ryesenova]

@dongfangyufeisss

I can incorporate treats, I don’t know why I hadn’t thought to before

I had the same experience with my doodle when we started ecollar. Unconsciously I used treats less consistently and relied on the button more. This made him slightly shut down and hesitant.

I reincorporated treats fully and he's happy again. I don't look at it as a compulsion tool, and I do not shy away from treats like these old school trainers. The tool is just to give him off leash freedom.

We also train with the educator pavlovian tone mode - beep for a few seconds and then stim. After a while he knows what the beep means.

 

[dongfangyufeisss]

@ryesenova This is a great idea! I’m going to try and use the vibrate more in conjunction with what Accomplished-Wish494 was suggesting, thank you!

 

[ryesenova]

@dongfangyufeisss Vibrate is a bit more tricky. My dogs find it more aversive than stim.

 

[miesa]

@dongfangyufeisss Once the dog understands what the pressure is and how to turn it off, it really should only be used for non-compliance.

Also I think I get why the trainer’s told you to do that - typically an owner will take a dog home after boarding and very often will take the training as a given, like the dog is “fixed” now. But there should be a period of maybe 2-4 weeks where commands are reinforced so the dog understands they can’t mess you around like they maybe used to… old habits die hard and all that.

So if your dog is listening to your commands in the house now and is aware that you have the same “powers” as the trainer he’s just been working with, now you can phase out the stim. Keep the collar on them for a little longer because now there’s a risk of them thinking, “well I didn’t feel anything, so F-You”, and that way you’ve got a back-up. Then once you’re happy they’re listening to you reliably, you should be fine to take it off and rely on verbals alone (in the house).

Just don’t fall into the trap of them blowing you off and you approaching the situation with hot dogs and toys to try and get them to listen again; for behaviours the dog already knows, the reward is for compliance, it’s not to lure them into doing what they’re told.

 

[davecb]

@dongfangyufeisss So most board and trains, even those that have a dog for awhile like the one you used, do not properly condition an e collar.

They put it on the dog on day one and off they go.

As you can see, there is some behavioral fall out when a trainer does that.

Done properly the dog, from day one, no exception, learns that HE controls the collar. When the dog has control over the collar, the collar isn't scary.

Whoever worked with your dog, didn't teach that. This?

I’m really careful with the settings, she doesn’t get any level that I haven’t used on my own neck, but I fear she’s somehow associated the sensations with punishment

The trainer you used 100% used the collar for punishment, probably at a fairly high level. It doesn't matter how you use it, your dog thinks that they're going to be stimmed hard.

Your dog wasn't give the chance to learn right off, that the collar was a pre-cue for going for a run in the woods, or whatever.

So now you have a few choices.

One is find a local trainer who actually knows how to train a dog for an e collar, and start over.

The other is accept that your dog hates this collar, and don't use it. That will mean your dog has to be on a long line or leash when in the woods. But if you don't live in a place where your dog will be off leash, ever, it's not that big a deal.

I'd probably go with the second thing: keep your dog on a leash, and work on your relationship.

I really hate 90+ percent of board and trains. They want to have a dog trained fast, even if it's shitty training, so they can post videos on social media proclaiming that they've had Fido for 24 hours and look at him, he's not on a leash.

 

[kreke]

@dongfangyufeisss Aversives are punishment. Thats how and why they work.

 

[madtilly62]

@dongfangyufeisss This my not be an ecollar thing and just a collar thing.

My staffy avoids the flat collar when i put it on him even though i think he learns that i only use the flat collar with a long line (extra freedom)