Disheartened

O

oranget

New member
Long story short, my Aussie x Border Collie pup is extremely leash reactive. She has her good days and bad, although tonight really seemed to be a “bad” day. My pup, Mabel got into pulling and lunging around the six month mark, where all of our training seemed to go out the window.

From a young age we’ve walked her and introduced her to the leash. A month ago we were at three walks a day, and now we’re down to MAYBE one.

Now she is eight months and very leash reactive, and ONLY leash reactive. She is perfectly okay with just her harness, and understands commands/voluntarily makes eye contact with me. However, we clip on her harness and it’s as though she’s another dog.

I feel terrible, so I’d really just like some advice on how to proceed. I’m frustrated, drained, and I just want her to have a good life.

TOOLS I have tried:

Front Clip Harness (what I currently use)
Back Clip harness (nope, extreme pulling with this)
Collar (extreme pulling with this, scrapped it due to fear of causing injury)
Halti (LOVED this & she seemed to as well, but she got excited when a dog was going by one night and chewed through one of the sides)

Training I have tried:

“Come” game, (treat in hand, telling her to come, and marking “yes” before giving her a treat when she listens)

Chasing game (running away from her & having her chase me to remain close, rewarding her)

She knows several commands including; sit, stay, wait, paw, “ahht, ahht” (if you consider that a ‘command’) down, come, lay down, stop, etc. (would I say she’s “mastered” them all? I don’t think so, yet.)

Regular Structured Day:

Wake up around 5:00 AM, take her outside for potty, run around for 5 mins, go back inside. She usually sleeps until 7-8 AM,

Wake up between 7-8:00 AM, go outside for potty, have breakfast

Play inside for 10 mins

A few rounds of puzzle games

Outside for 20-30 minutes in the backyard, throwing the ball, etc, this is “loose leash” time (her leash is still clipped to her harness but she’s able to run around in the snow freely)

Go back in, brushing for 10 mins,

Training for about 10 minutes, (we start with the easy one she’s already learned, and we move on to one’s she struggles with; lay down, stay, leave it, etc. we do a few reps)

Stuffed KONG toy for lunch.

More naps

Back outside for potty and another 15-20 minute round of play. (This includes running after her, throwing her ball, burying her ball and having her find it, etc)

back inside,

Naps and more play inside the house, lots of attention and cuddling/relaxing

She has dinner between 5:00 - 6:00 PM

back outside for potty around 6:30 - 7:00 (if I feel she’s ready this is when I’ll decide if I want to do a walk or not.)

Brushing when we get home, another small round of training if she’s up for it and in bed around 10:00 PM
 
@fl269fl269 To me, when I think of “leash reactivity” I think of my pup, Mabel, freezing on her walks and getting extremely frustrated when we tell her “ahhht, shut, let’s go” that she can’t meet the dogs she’ll start FREAKING out, until we move along away from them. Then it’s mostly cars, as she tries to chase them but when this happens, I’ll tell her “sit” and then, “look at that”

With leash reactivity I think of Mabel being frustrated and scared, all she knows is that something scary and stressful happened, and both her and me are feeling those vibes. She military crawls because she wants so badly to check it out, even if she’s not supposed to.

I suppose to me, it would also mean structuring our days around what she’s comfy with. I think I’m comfortable scrapping our walks totally for now, stick to in the backyard and wait to see.

If that doesn’t work, it’s back to the drawing board for me.
 
@oranget Is she reactive to dogs because she wants to play with them? If so, this webinar was game-changing for my girl in that regard. I'm unsure of anything for that herding tendency when she sees cars though.
 
@grace4nan Thank you for the above comments. She definitely has a chase/herd drive, so I think that’s where her fascination comes from. Also, I think it stems more from her wanting to play with them, because she’ll cry and whine and wag her tail!

We have done lots of loose leash training as well, such as “start stop” where we’ll start and stop, and if no pulling occurs/she stays close to me I’ll mark and reward. I currently hold the leash at belly button level in my opposite hand, and often try to guide her back to my left side where I want her to stay.

She does cross and doesn’t seem to want to stay, even when I’ve rewarded her on the same time and corrected. She’s starting to get “With me” which is by my side, reward, etc, but we’re not quite there yet.

I’ll keep trying, and check out this webinar, thank you so so much!
 
@oranget Sounds excited, frustration based (wanting to check things out or chase) vs fear based (attack or run away). What have you done to teach loose leash walking under distraction at lower thresholds? I would skip walks in favor of controlled training situations to work know that.
 
@oranget I'd start with looking up management around triggers. I recommend Dr. Amy Cook, who teaches her management course on Fenzi dog sports academy.

Not every trigger needs to be a training opportunity, and you'll actually make more progress with the training if you're doing set ups to work through the reactivity where you can either control where the other dog/car is, or have solid plans to control the distance yourself, vs just on a walk where things are more likely to pop up past your threshold distance.

So on walks where my goal is exercise/enrichment vs reactivity training, I will "avoid" the triggers basically. This looks like doing a u turn, walking down a different street if needed, or using a treat magnet to walk the dog past the trigger. Even skills like a treat magnet need to be practiced outside the context of the triggers so they can be fluent enough when you are trying to get closer to a trigger.

Additionally, if you're using LAT, I'd look up the webinar on it from Leslie McDevitt that is on YouTube if you haven't already. It can be easy to poison a look at that cue because it sounds fairly easy, but the timing is important.

Lastly, I'd also look into adding some scent work type games and/or decompression walks on a long line in less crowded nature settings if you have the opportunity at all. Scent work games can be as simple as finding treats hidden around the house places, starting easy and getting more difficult as she learns the game, or as far as getting into the sport of Nosework and training on the scents they use.

For the decompression walks, I find that is really a missing piece for a lot of dogs. Being able to really move around in any direction, sniff as much as they want, etc can be really helpful, and if you have places that won't have other people/dogs (sniff spots can be a great resource here) it can really help the dog learn to settle and forget about seeing hyper vigilant on walks when when you are around triggers more.
 
@oranget Hey op, you’re doing a lot of things right so pat yourself on the back! A balanced trainer will help with what I’m about to explain but I’ll give it a go.

You’ve got a working dog with some serious drive is what is sounds like. Your routine is great but sometimes these dogs need to get out and RUN on instinct, the kongs and puzzles are awesome but it doesn’t sound like that’s going to cut it for your pup. When my Dalmatian was two almost 3, we would go on 5-6mile bike rides every morning. We also lived on 30 acres at one point, we’d take her out on dirt bikes and just let her run with us, it was amazing to watch. Keep in mind your pup is young so you wouldn’t go this hard just yet. My dogs natural instinct of following was exercised from her running along side my bike, it was an amazing outlet for her BREED and her drive. sometimes we have to stop and breathe, and remember to let our dogs be dogs. Your Aussie is also bred to run, more than my Dal even! Aussies heard and healers heard. You’ve absolutely got to do something for their breed. A dog that is exercised according to their breed is a MUCH easier dog to train. Even agility would be a great option for you guys to look into! Awesome for drive and your bond/teamwork. I’m sure there’s a local team you could check out. But pleasee remember, teaching your dog to be “off” is just as important as exercising their instincts. Do you crate or place after walks? If so, do you let your pup off crate or place the moment she protests? Do you reward periodically when she is in “place” to let her know staying and relaxing is to be rewarded?

Next after your pup is properly tired (for my pup after our bike rides this was usually around 3pm) I’d definitely work on lose leash healing/ ie when you feel the end of the leash that means you come towards me not pull harder in the other direction. Keep distractions minimal and far, and work up to doing this in a Home Depot. A prong collar might work for you but do your research to use properly.

Last and most important!! Your dog is a puppy. Cut her and yourself some slack. You kind of know what you’re doing and your puppy has no idea what she’s doing! The next 10+ years are going to be a learning period of trial and error and that’s totally ok!! The more confident you become the more your dog will want to follow your direction. I do not believe from what you’ve described that your dog is leash reactive, more leash frustrated. She senses that your learning and that your not quite the leader she needs but you will be soon. you’ll get there you absolutely will. Teach her that the leash means focus on YOU and treats when she does. You could even save any and all food you feed her for your training sessions if you feed kibble. This is how you create food drive and an intense focus on you. Making a working dog WORK for their food is really rewarding for those types of dogs. You need to go back to the basics. Choose your tools, STICK to that tool and master your tool. Give her and yourself room to make mistakes and just keep going.

Tom Davis has an absolutely amazing library of videos for 20$ a month. Do yourself a favor and subscribe to his stuff. Even his free 20 minute clips on YouTube are great tools. Check him out, this will be a game changer for you.

You’re more than welcome to reach out to me, I hope anything I said helps! Good luck you two 🐾
 
@grace4nan It did help, I cried reading this!

I think exuding more confidence, having a more clear voice so she knows what I want her to do and doesn’t get confused, and going back to basics is the thing for us.

When we’re outside, we’ll often throw around two balls that she jumps up to catch — this usually really helps with her pent up energy. Being a mix of two high energy breeds doesn’t help, but I will definitely look into frisbee throwing as well since I’ve heard that’s a good game to play!

Thank you, thank you for this. Along with yourself, I have been given so many resources to move forward with Mabel and her training. I hope to come back with updates eventually!
 
Tears of happiness I hope 😄 give a working breed a job and you’ll have an amazing dog I promise. And remember that off switch, you don’t want to create an adrenaline junkie!
 
@oranget Just to add, she is at an age that she is hitting adolescence and her behavior is going to regress. Don't be surprised if this happens to her overall training. Be gentle with yourself and forgiving.
 
@oranget Your dog has a great life! Maybe prong, maybe really training the pull out of her. Back and forth, back and forth, back and forth till you're sick? Anytime there is tension flip directions. Anytime. It's a bit exhausting because you generally don't get anywhere, but worked for me. Just stick to it.
 
@oranget Yup, sounds like a prong collar scenario to me. You need to correct the reactivity while she’s on the leash so that she can learn what leash pressure is, with the goal of getting her to make the choices that will keep the leash loose.

Sounds like she’s at least leash reactive to other dogs, so she needs general reactivity training, which includes teaching her the heel command. Make training a goal on your walks- as soon as she starts pulling or reacting to something, correct her and calmly but also briskly and confidently move on in another direction. I would also start adding a “break” command into your leave it and stay commands. I find it really helpful in establishing structure for a dog’s mind, so that they understand when they need to turn on their self-control and when they can have it off and just go be a dog.

Another commenter recommended Upstate Canine Academy- I second this! That’s where I got most of my training advice from for my own ACD/Border Collie mix, who had similar issues when I first adopted her 4 years ago. Yesterday we walked up to 3 other dogs on the street and she kept a loose leash the entire time all the way up until they actually greeted.
 
@beepete Thank you for this, I forgot to mention that I have enlisted the help of a trainer, and they’ve recommended for me to stay home, scrap her current training and forget about the walks until she can properly walk on a lead.

This was also a very late post, so I also forgot to add that she is my first dog, so there are some things I’m likely doing wrong.

I will look into another trainer and ask about the use of prong collars.

When we’re out on leash, I train her by saying, “Mabel, come” and mark when she does. I know she’s a bit confused, because sometimes when she has a trigger waiting for her, she’ll look to me. Again, good days and bad, last night I cried thinking about the things I would’ve done differently in her younger puppy days, today I’m waking up at 5:00 AM, to get more training in.

Fingers crossed, I know this is a lot of work and can be frustrating, but I’m SO willing to put in the time because she’s my baby.
 
@oranget Actually the trainers suggestion to scrap walks until have loose leash walking is a good one. This doesn't mean you stay home, it just means you stop putting the dog in uncontrolled situations where it practices the behavior as the behavior is self rewarding/reinforcing.
 
@fl269fl269 100%, after doing research I learned about thresholds and controlled environments. Once we do some more training both inside and outside around our house and at local parks when nobody’s around I plan to take her to the small shopping plaza where we can sit at the benches within a good distance and watch the people/cars go by to give her real-life scenarios as well.
 
@oranget Look into using a prong collar. It was the only thing that fixed our dog’s pulling. Get in contact with a balanced trainer (if you can’t find one, look up Robert Cabral and Upstate Canine Academy on YouTube) and learn to use it fairly and properly.

Your routine looks good to me! Most people don’t even develop routines with their dogs lol.
 
@daniom There may be something that OP is doing, in combination with this particular dog, that is causing and reinforcing this behaviour.

So an outside trainer / observer is really needed. Very likely the prong is part of the solution, but OP should not get a prong collar without outside assistance.
 
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