Let's say I get an e-collar with NO ZAPPING and slowly introduce it to my dog (over the course of a few days) like this:
Take it out of the package and give her treats/praise when she sniffs it. End of session.
Next 2-3 sessions, have it sit near us while we do basic commands like sit, lie down, etc, making it buzz/beep at the exact same time she gets a treat.
For maybe 4-5 sessions, practice things she can do while lying down (shake, boop the snoot) while holding the collar against her (lightly at first, then gradually with more pressure), but not wearing it (I think having her lie down would make it easier for me to hold the thing on her side). Repeat the positive reinforcement w/ treats + buzz/beep at same time.
Once she seems totally used to that, put the collar on and practice all the tricks she knows, with a buzz/beep + treat each time.
Practice recall in the backyard, then more distracting environments like the park with a long leash. More treats.
Eventually only use it for recall, so that she knows that a buzz/bee[ means coming to me will earn her a treat.
Gradually reduce the frequency of treats once it seems like she's formed that positive association and does the behavior reliably.
I'm interested in doing this because I'd like to let her off leash and explore in nature, but I want to make sure her recall is rock solid. I've read that this tool can be helpful in these situations.
Thoughts? Experiences? I don't believe in correction-style training at all, and that is not my intention when using it.
@johnc101 I have no substantive comment on your plan, but: if you're not aware, most dogs find the buzzer on an ecollar startling and more aversive than the stim at low to moderate levels. If you don't believe in "correction style training" you probably ought to skip the vibrate option on your plan.
@johnc101 What a way to make training needlessly more complicated. If you're against any type of correction type training stick to shoveling treats at your dog. However you do realize a long leash is a corrective tool so is your short leash and probably a lot of other things you're doing. An e-collar is no more aversive then a collar or harness and leash if used correctly.
@johnc101 Clicker training begins by using classical conditioning by associating the NEUTRAL click with food. Over time the previously NEUTRAL click elicits the same “happy brain” response that food does. This is the same process that conditions dogs to react to a word or words as a reward. The words are originally neutral to dogs. They don’t have language.
Anyway, with that conditioned reinforcer (click or word) you can use positive reinforcement (one type of operant conditioning) to train without having to use food all the time.
The problem with using the buzz/vibrate setting on the collar in the same way we use clickers is that the buzz/vibrate isn’t neutral to many/most dogs. So, classically conditioning the collar vibrate to serve as a reinforcer will be very hard.
@johnc101 What are you hoping the e-collar will provide that a “here” command + marker/clicker won’t? If you’re worried about your dog hearing a recall command at a distance, you can easily condition a whistle recall.
You definitely could use an e-collar this way, but it just seems unnecessary.
@johnc101 it entirely depends on whether the dog finds the vibration inherently aversive. You want a stimulus that is naturally neutral if you really want to succeed. if your dog does find vibration aversive, and there is a decent chance it does, then you are creating conflict by pairing a positive punishment with a positive reinforcer.
You don't really need to use the collar around behaviour to begin with. just buzz followed by reward. this will classically condition your dog to the vibration. After a few sessions you can test the pairing by looking for behavior like licking their lips (important to understand the difference between stress licks and food anticipatory licks) when the collar buzzes. Regardless Collar needs to precede the reward by 1 second or so, not at the same time. you can then use it for rewards. The question is what is the goal? if you cannot see your dog for recall then how can you accurately reinforce the correct behavior?
Most collars have a tone function: better to use that instead. Alternatively use a tone only collar. Note that for step 7 you cannot entirely fade the treats as the tone/vibration is only a conditioned reinforcer which will fade over time if you eliminate the primary reward. The degree to which you can fade also depends on your dogs internal motivators.
Have you read the reason WHY it is helpful? It's not because you can pair it with rewards (though you should), you can do that with a verbal cue or a whistle.
It is because you can negatively reinforce, ie correct, the dog at a distance.
@johnc101 Im not sure how well an ecollar lends itself to a positive reinforcer; unless, you were to attempt to condition it similar to
A click. Personally I use low stim as an attention-getter. I have young herding dogs that sometimes get locked in and hard-eyed. I often work at distance with them so the method goes something like: dog's name + low stim -> dog looks to me -> issues directive -> dog performs and goes about its business after I break it from command. Imo the slight aversive effect of a light stim teaches the dog to listen for its name even when it's out caught up in working or just being dog-brained on a smell or whatever. In essence it's using negative reinforcement through escape/avoidance training with gentle stim (perform the action and the buzzing stops).
That being said, once the dog gets a little older and more reliable to tuning in when you ask for their attention the ecollar looses a lot of its value, but it's nice backup when working at distance or around a lot of distraction like wildlife or livestock or what have you
@johnc101 Mixing your reinforcement with your punishment may be limiting your range of options. Say you look at markers or bridges on a spectrum: pleasant to painful. Clicker would be on the pleasant end of the spectrum, whereas the ecollar would be closer to the other end. You want to keep as many options open as possible. Why not start on the pleasant side and accomplish as much as possible with handsignal or clicker, and reserve the extra gear for "if necessary" status. It will, at minimum, develop your timing and skill at reinforcing and shaping. A clicker is much more precise and elegant.
@johnc101 I use the beep as a reward marker for one of my dogs. I just charged it the same way as a clicker or verbal marker- beep-treat like a million times over several sessions. It sounds almost like you want it to be a cue, which is different.
@johnc101 I mean, yes technically it could but if all you want it to do is make a sound then you can save your money and buy a clicker or a whistle for a heck of a lot less money.
The whole point of moving up to the ecollar is specifically to teach them that the beep/vibration means to listen to you, and teach them that if they don't listen there's a correction given.
@johnc101 I use one of the tones on ours as a release marker to tell my dog she is allowed to move to come get her reward.
I would use the vibration for negative reinforcment instead. They should already know the command well before you use the collar, its more for polishing what they already know than teaching new stuff.
Vibration as you give the recall command. The moment she turns towards you stop the vibration and praise and reward as usuall. If she turns away again mid recall use it again untill she is heading back to you. Use it with the long leash to start with so you can help guide her towards you if needed.
Pretty much the same with other commands. Sit + vibration, the moment the dogs butt touches the ground stop the vibration and use some positive reinforcment.
Some dogs find vibration more aversive than a low level stim though, dont be suprised if it freaks her out a bit at first.
I got a vibration collar to use as a punisher for my dog digging in the garden, worked once. After that she just ignored it and carried on. They are good for some things but dont expect it to stop a dog from doing anything they really want. It will help for recall practice but I don't think your going to have an easy time calling a high prey drive dog off chasing a deer or something with a vibration collar.
@johnc101 You can certainly do that as long as you're aware it's probably not going to be a reliable behavior change if the dog encounters what it considers to be a serious competing motivation.
i.e. Externally motivated Dog with high pre-drive isn't likely to comply with a tone or vibration when it's chasing a deer.
I believe the goal of all training tools, food, leashes and collars and electric collars is to change a dog behavior not manage it. I think most people just manage their dogs behavior and don't change it to a level is reliable around high competing motivations.
I use all those tools in training a dog but my ultimate goal is to not need those tools in any situation.
But.
I don't care who trains a dog by method there is always the chance that a competing motivation or situation might conspire so they command compliance and command reinforcement would be necessary.
Many dogs have a great foundation but never transition to a high level of behavior change because people don't follow a system of successive approximation while reinforcing commands appropriate levels based on individual dogs sensitivity to sensation and sensitivity in arousal.
I don't even want to crack the egg of auditory exclusion here.
