BAT or engage-disengage game preference

[stewart2014]

Hi fellow reactive dog guardians,

I am curious as to what this community prefers in general, the BAT technique or doing the engage-disengage game. From my understanding, BAT is more of a 'philosophy' where you let the dog explore on their own and make the decisions. On the other hand, engage-disengage tells your dog exactly what you want from them but still giving them the choice whether or not they participate in it.

My doggo, an almost 2 y/o bullmastiff mix (3 months into rescuing him) is a leash reactive boy, stemming from frustration (I think.) He barks at all dogs on walks, however the bark can either be his 'scary' bark or 'whiney' bark. Each time his hair puffs out along his back down to his tail. He is great off leash and loves dogs otherwise. Is moderate when walking with other dogs he knows (won't bark at them but gets v excited and wants to play.)

I want to go to a dog park and sit outside of it with him and do the engage-disengage game. All of our dog friends are all reactive to a degree or old/stressed out by the commotion so we can't use them for set ups because I wouldn't want to put them in that stressful situation just to try and help our doggo. I've put it off because I am an overthinker and don't want to mess it up right from the get go, so of course now I've just procrastinated and feel bad that I haven't already started it.

I only recently looked into BAT, because I am detail obsessed, and now I'm trying to decide what method to start with. Can I still use BAT if my only set up are the dogs at the dog park? I don't mind using treats for engage-disengage, but it's nice to think about that I wouldn't necessarily have to rely on them for BAT.

What do you guys think? Anyone tried both? Together or separately?

Helped a stressed dog mother out, who is trying to be less stressed for my doggos sake! Thanks!

 

[jhfreeman]

@stewart2014 I do a LOT of engage-disengage work with my dog-reactive (excitement, some fear) and human-reactive (mostly fear) dog, and have made huge progress. The biggest thing for me was being able to read her body language. The minute she stiffens or starts to fixate or I see her lip twitch, I give her a “look” command and she looks at me, and visibly relaxes. So I reward her. If she is looking at a trigger in a relaxed fashion I will reward her without making her look.

Key points for us were:

-to keep her moving: walking around helped her shake off stress, create distance when we needed to (especially if it’s a “oh crap she’s about to explode” kind of situation it’s easier if you are already moving, not starting from a down stay!)

-high value treats: when she wouldn’t look and was too fixated, I’d hold something stinky in front of her nose and lure her to looking at me. Then she got to eat it.

-time: make your sessions short to start! It’s a super stressful situation for your pup to be in

-my dog will mirror my energy. If I fake confidence and “everything is good” thoughts she does a lot better than if I myself am stressed out.

In terms of BAT, I found that she would just fixate and throw a tantrum and stress out the other dogs around her if I would leave her to investigate on her own. My dog needed structure and she is slowly learning that when she sees a trigger, she should look to me for what to do (the first time she looked without me asking for it, while on a walk where we encountered off-leash dogs w no owners I swear I melted and cried). I think once she is more solid with these patterns and structure I am teaching her and showing her, I will feel more comfortable to give her leeway to investigate on her own because I will trust her choices more, and it will be safer for all of us involved.

Sorry it’s long, I hope it’s at least some help, happy to discuss any of these aspects more if it would be helpful!

(Edits formatting)

 

[stewart2014]

@jhfreeman Thank you for this! I appreciate long, detailed comments (refer back to detail oriented, overthinker haha.) I definitely need to get more in tune with his behavioral cues, but like I said we only have had him for 3 months and we are both still learning! It's also hard to really pinpoint things as I'm also trying to manage/react to his reactions. I need to try and video our walks but everytime I try the camera isn't on him and I rarely get to walk with others, but I have to try better to really pick up on the little things.

This might be a stupid question, but did you put the engage/disengage on a cue (your look cue) or is it a separate fail safe? I totally understand the want for it to not be on command because you want it as a choice they make, but I also know dogs don't generalize well and therefore us playing the game at the dog park won't transfer over to a structured walk when we see a trigger.

And you key points make a lot of sense, especially the keep moving. I'm happy to hear you have made progress, it definitely gives me hope. And it definitely makes sense to me that BAT might work better once the dog can make better decisions (technically that is management and better setting them up for success)

 

[jhfreeman]

@stewart2014 That’s a great question, not stupid at all! My engage-disengage is on a cue at this point. It’s literally “look” and she makes eye contact with me. If we are more “in the wild” and maybe she catches sight of a rabbit, I may backpedal and call “here” with a little leash pressure if she doesn’t listen. If she recalls (even on lead from 3 feet away) I count that as a win and will reward. I would love to disengage with play (ie tug) but mine is so not play driven at all so we aren’t there yet. Hopefully eventually she will disengage on her own, but I think that’s a long ways down the road! My understanding of that is once your dog learns to trust you to make good and safe decisions, he will feel like he can look to you instead of react, but that means it’s going to take thousands of repetitions to get there

 

[jvision]

@jhfreeman

first time she looked without me asking for it

Nothing to add, I just want to say I am lucky to know that feeling. Magical!

 

[essy1010]

@stewart2014 Both have their uses imo

We do BAT when there's an open field. It's not very practical on busy sidewalks (we live in a densely populated urban center apartment area). In a big park my dog can be on a long line and do whatever.

When out walking on the sidewalks, we use regular leash and do engage-disengage

 

[stewart2014]

@essy1010 Fair enough. I just worried I guess that sometimes doing engage-disengage and then not doing it another time (ie not rewarding when they look at you while you're doing BAT) would start to poison the engage-disengage. Does that make sense? Lol

 

[julianwithjesus]

@stewart2014 We’re doing engage-disengage for half a year or so, and we got to the point where he will disengage from 95% of things or bark once and disengage. It didn’t teach him to disengage on his own. If I don’t intervene with the cue, he will react still to most of the triggers. Starting working on BAT with professional soon to see if it will help with him making good decisions on his own.