Advocated and protected my dog...shocked the other owner. Yikes

M

martin2017

New member
A few days ago my partner and I were hiking with Bonanza (reactive dog). We walked by a woman with her kid, who let us know that her husband and the dog were just ahead. We paused, thanked her for letting us know and asked if it was leashed. It wasn't, so she yelled ahead to tell her husband to put it on leash. Instead, the dog thought it was being recalled and came sprinting at us from around a wooded corner.

It was huge, graceful and muscular and headed straight for B as soon as it saw her (not aggressively...more like it wanted to play). Thanks to all I've learned from this thread and the trainers I've worked with, I calmly told my partner to retreat with B, then I stepped towards the oncoming big buddy and...

I made a low, abrupt, loud 'HALT' sound that I genuinely couldn't replicate if I tried (I'm normally very soft spoken, so this was pretty neat to pull off). It worked. The oncoming dog immediately slowed, looked surprised and veered off the other way. Catastrophe avoided, and with minimal intervention...but the lady was APPALLED. When I turned around she was staring at me with shock on her face and hissed "you did NOT have do that". The momentary relief and pride I felt at redirecting the dog drained, and all I could muster was a quiet "It was for your dog, not mine. It was to keep your dog safe. I'm sorry you had to see that."

And then I kept obsessing about what I should have done differently for the next hour, and I'm *still* thinking about it days later. But...it's okay because it could have been way worse, and I advocated for my dog. I just wish it hadn't been so awful and shocking for the lady, I suppose. I also wish I had been a bit more direct in my explanation and said something like "I just put my own body between our dogs to keep them both safe, and I wish I hadn't had to do that."

ANYWAYS: long post, but thank you for 1.5 years of helpful advice and guidance, and especially for the sense of community. Y'all helped me keep Bonanza safe, and I appreciate it!
 
@martin2017 I once rehabbed a reactive dog and while on a walk a small unleashed dog about the size of a chihuahua went right for mine, a big ol black lab mix. He would have annihilated that little guy and I would have felt so guilty so my reaction was to drop the leash (why I though that was smart is beyond me) and charge this little dog. I yelled and took a few rushed steps toward it and it backed off. I turned, picked up the leash and I shit you not, my dog thought I was the best thing since sliced bread. He stopped being so reactive on walks after that and I always credit that to him knowing I had his back. You did good for both dogs and that woman’s reaction is her business. It was better than any other outcome and no one got hurt. (Except her feelings but that’s on her)
 
@jbaiden This actually happened to me too!

My reactive boy is 35lbs, tall and lean. In January 2020 he was attacked and destroyed by a huge off leash/uncontrolled GSD. He was reactive before this incident, but it solidified his notion that off leash dogs = danger.

Anyway we moved that July and a few doors down an unaltered male english bulldog mix (my guess is it's crossed with a frenchie) constantly harasses us on our walks. It never had a collar, harness, nothing.

My dog was freaking out, so I charged it when ever it approached and my poor guy trusted me to handle it whenever we saw the bulldog was out. This dog would just stand on our front sidewalk and bark at us inside our own home ....

Until January 2021, when I was taking down my Christmas lights. My dog was on his tie out in the front yard. He had enough length to reach the entire yard, but no more. The bulldog was let out. He saw me and charged over to...see me I guess. I was standing in my driveway.

What the bulldog didn't see was my dog, who was on the opposite side of our yard sniffing/rolling in grass. He saw this dog charging up to me and just knocked this dog flat out on it's back in 30 seconds or less. Luckily my dog was on a harness so I was able to just lift him off the bulldog (snarling and spitting) and the bulldog's owner scurried over and picked him up.

No real harm done to either dog (my dog tore one of the tendons that attach his lips to his gum line). Luckily bulldogs:
  1. Have flat faces and couldn't actually get a hold of my dog
  2. Have lots of loose skin so my dog couldn't get a grip either.
The bull dog won't go in our yard now though, and avoids us entirely.
 
@jbaiden Great job. You’ve earned your dog’s trust once he knows you have his back. As a leader, we are responsible for keeping our dog safe. Until he knows you do have his back, he may instead take charge and try to protect you.
 
@jbaiden We just introduced our new puppy to my bf's mom's big dog who is dog reactive. I think a big part of it going well was showing the older dog that we had his back by stopping our puppy from bothering him. He saw us pull her away from him and run to intercept her when she would try to rush him.

It seems strange to us to think that a 90lb dog is afraid of a 16lb puppy but that is what was happening and showing that we would protect him was a big step for him. So often people think the smaller dog won't hurt the bigger dog and don't bother to stop them from bothering big dogs.
 
@jbaiden Ok that's amazing!

FYI in dog lingo, you did not prove that you had his back. You proved yourself to be the pack leader! Because of this specific incident, you were able to prove that he did not have to be "in charge," as most reactive dogs think they are.

We are not good at being pack leaders. We give our dogs attention when they want it and ask for it, we hardly ever ignore them, and we usually react when we walk in the door and they jump up on us to greet us. Pack Leaders do none of that. Pack Leaders are cool, calm, and collected. When other dogs return to the pack and jump all over one another, they are reestablishing their pack hierarchy. Pack Leaders do not engage in that. They also do not let other pack members approach them and engage with them when they want. Only pack leaders decide when to interact with their members. They are smart, decisive, and protect the pack which is why they are basically on a pedestal.

I was able to calm my reactive dog by not reacting to him and only giving him attention when I asked for it. I also refused to feed him if he was aggressive towards me while I tried to put his food down. I had to stop, turn around, and go in another room and shut the door until the barking was done. I walked away 16 times before he did not bark at me or try to nip- but he hasn't done it since! Took one night, and about 20 mins.

You did a great job! If you look up amichien dog training, it's really all body language that teaches you to be a pack leader. I've read a few books about it, and learned that a lot of dogs are not great pack leaders but we give them enough signals so they feel that they are in charge and they don't know how to handle it without aggression. Really fascinating stuff!

Keep it up! You did the right thing.
 
@ooamberoo And interestingly enough, the books I've read on amichien training also don't agree with Cesar Milan's forceful way of training! It's all body language, which is contact-free, with no physical force. It's interesting that the "forceful" methods of training are what they cite, and not others.

I would also encourage you to look up "the dog listener" by Jan Fennel.

It is not forceful training and does reference the types of natural, fluid leadership styles that your article rederences, but it shows US how to do those cool things that leaders in a pack do without force, as no physical fighting is used in nature, either.

In other words, amichien training backs up this article!

Honestly, this is fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
 
@williamm Interesting, thank you! So often “trainers” use the pack leader language to explain “scientifically” a use of punitive techniques. I think a calm and benevolent leader is helpful for our sensitive dogs to be able to look to when they get nervous! Armed with a lot of snacks in my case!

Not to get too nerdy, but if you do want to know, it sounds like you taught your pup with negative punishment (taking away something (food) to decrease a behavior (the jumping). Google “The behavior quadrants” to learn more!
 
@ooamberoo Thanks for the response... I didn't use negative punishment. What happened was he was biting at me and barking aggressively when I would approach with his food. If he barked or nipped, I simply turned around and walked out of the room until he stopped barking. When it stopped, I came back in. Total time (with me walking out about 16 times) was less than 20 minutes. He hasn't done it since. I couldn't risk getting bitten, and giving him his food while biting is not okay(just like giving a tantruming child candy to stop). I wasn't taking it away, just not offering until he was quiet and non-aggressive. It took one 20-minute trial.

If withholding food one time for 20 mins for a lifetime of calm dog during feeding isn't okay, I'm not sure what is lol! Now he will even sit and wait as I put it down, and when I give a signal (a few seconds later), he eats.
 
@williamm Oh I didn’t mean to suggest you were being cruel! negative punishment just means removal of something (“negative”) to decrease a behavior (“punishment”). Not making a value judgement on it. Here, “negative/positive” and “punishment/reinforcement” are scientific terms used to explain behavior. Not “negative” like necessarily “wrong”
 
@martin2017 I am a dog trainer that often works at parks and outdoor areas with my clients. Many of them are coming to me for reactivity and aggression issues. Multiple times I have had off leash dogs run at my clients dog. Generally I have my client step back and work with their dog while I handle the situation. Usually getting between the path of dogs and shouting a loud out/no will get the dog to stop enough for me to grab its collar.
I have had LOTS of people get mad at me for shouting at their dog and grabbing its collar. After seeing the appreciation and relief on a clients face I will never apologize to the irresponsible person who caused the incident. More often than not my clients dog has the potential to seriously injured the incoming dog, or ruin its perception of other dogs.
Never be ashamed of advocating for your dog!
Keep your dogs on a leash or be prepared to have someone intervene.
 
@rosiew One of my dogs is not reactive and I trained her to sit off to the side while I see if its ok for her to say hi to the another dog or person. She is always consistent about it but if for some reason she didn't listen and ran at a dog and someone scared her away I would be happy.
 
@imagebeastmarkbeast It started with my aggressive dog. I happened to be working at a big corporate chain pet store, who has its own dog training program. I enrolled and worked with him with my trianer/coworker. After learning as much as I did with him I joined their dog training program where they certified me as a trainer. From there, (I no longer work at that company) I moved to another training company where I continue to train and learn every day.
 
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