7-month-old dog continues to jump and gnaw on people as a form of greeting

[operagirl84]

Hi everyone,

Looking for some advice on my girl Cassie -- a rescued 7-month-old Belgian Malinois/Boxer that I've had since she was 5 months old. Cassie has been working through some stuff (lol) because she didn't understand the concept of any boundaries or basic obedience, but we've made strides.

My big issue now is that Cassie thinks it's okay to jump on everyone (strangers, family, friends, etc) to say hi to them. If you try to block her with your hands, direct her down by the collar or leash, etc, she goes full-on land-shark and starts gnawing on your hands.

I'm looking for ways to correct this because I don't want her jumping on people, but the positive-reinforcement-only facility where she took adolescent obedience only believes in 'treat scattering'. I can attest: this does not work for her.

Cassie knows 'sit', 'down', 'here', 'place', 'leave it', and 'out' but becomes incredibly stubborn if someone comes in, including house-mates (which makes this a multiple-times a day thing even if she's brought out on her leash or told to sit before greeting).

Any thoughts on this would be super welcome.

 

[doks]

@operagirl84 So, part one of this is, you've had her for two month. This is an insignificant amount of time for training, particularly if the dog has had reinforcement for these behaviors in the past. Things I would work on:

• PREMACK for Greetings.
• Impulse control games: 1, 2 and 3.
• Really real Relaxation Protocol., alongside matwork tied with the relaxation protocol
• Prevent failure through the use of a tether. Find something heavy and tether to it. Reward neutral behaviors, jackpot staying on the place spot if the tether didn't have to kick in.
• Reps. Reps for days. You have to proof these behaviors. It takes time and reps.

 

[operagirl84]

@doks Thanks for the thoroughness of your reply! I'll check out all of these resources. When I got her at five months it was apparent she grew up in a free for all environment -- over excited greeting with every single human ever (like she'd been overly indulged and allowed to jump on people from day 1), jumping on furniture, no obedience... I immediately implemented a lot of structure -- she was on leash at all times for the first month and still is usually on place or on a lead when she's not in her kennel (re: the jumping on house mates).

We are undoing a LOT of suboptimal habits while laying the groundwork for obedience but of course, in two months, we haven't been able to solidly 'proof' yet. She's great though: she settles on place (used a tether to prevent failure), naps, hangs out at my feet while I work if I'm on the patio, etc. Taught impulse control quickly because I have cats and a chicken coop (she has been doing great but is still under close supervision) and through hand feeding/the "wait" command until she got the hang of it. She's clearly capable of ignoring distractions, but this greeting thing is a big one that we need to shape.

Thanks again for all the references.

 

[xtina35]

@doks Hey @doks, would you be able to help me access the “Really real relaxation protocol” link? It brings me to a dead end. Maybe it’s something I’m doing wrong (certainly possible lol) or perhaps the link changed or was butchered by Reddit? The others all work. Would appreciate your help!

 

[anioko1]

@operagirl84 Keep working the place command. It’s really the best way to handle this. Someone comes in, send her to her place and keep her there for a minute or two to calm down. Once your guests/house mates are settled she can leave. If she continues to jump, back to her place. May take some time to proof the command properly.

 

[operagirl84]

@anioko1 This is a great idea, thanks. We are working on 'sending' her to 'place' from a distance. First learned 'place' to keep her from bothering the cats and a strong 'leave it' to enforce ignoring the chicken coop. Weirdly enough, she seems to have minimal interest in squirrels/birds/cats/chickens (was expecting to do WAY more work on this due to her mix than I've had to do, but I'm staying watchful for any changes as she continues to develop).

How do you personally enforce "place" for your dog? I know some people tether with a lead so they can't wander far; others just say 'no' and bring the dog back, and others use an e-collar.

I was also thinking an "off" command, but I would much rather she just have a strong sense of "we don't jump on people" to the point where it doesn't even need to be a verbal cue.

 

[anonyme]

@operagirl84 There’s training exercises that others have mentioned but I want to add that, in my opinion, nobody should be greeting your dog. They gotta ignore her at first until she calms down. Using your hands and stuff to block her is interaction and to her that means fun. She’s getting attention which is ultimately what she wants. If you let anyone meet your dog they need to know not to be afraid and also not to interact. Just act like your dog isn’t there and turn away if she jumps or anything.

This isn’t going to solve the issue but greeting your dog is going to reinforce unwanted behavior/energy.

 

[karen54]

@operagirl84 I've had great success with the following with all our dogs, although it took almost a year to work with one of our current very stubborn and anxious dogs and I thought we'd never get there. I am only realizing now while writing this "hey, it worked!" Progress was so gradual I forgot to notice. ;o) But other dogs we have had "have more than two BB's for brains" as my husband is fond of saying. And they learned in a few days at most.

Talking to her, directing her, pushing her with hands, elbows, knees, etc. are reinforcers for the behaviors you don't want. Positive or negative reinforcers, either will "reward" your dog. Your dog is getting something out of this interaction--he's excited to see you and gets a response out of you--for him, that's success. The trick is not to reward this behavior in any way.

Because you have a steady stream of roommates coming in and out, your dog will get a lot of practice if you can get everyone on board to be consistent (good luck!). My trainer taught me this by actually backing in to the front door, standing still and quiet, until all four were on the floor and the dog was calm. I never quite mastered the backing in, but I learned to enter quietly (that's important, no "Lucy, I'm home!"), turn toward the door with my arms crossed across my chest and stand still and quiet until all four paws were on the floor and the dog is calm. Because he's a tall dog, I'd brace against the door so I couldn't get knocked over. If you turn and the dog goes jumpy again, return to that position until the desired behavior is reached again. The dog may jump at your back, but try to ignore. As the dog receives no reinforcement for this behavior, the behavior will be extinguished.

You may not be able to reasonably ask guests to do this, but as you extinguish it among household members, it will be easier to do the place command, on a leash, and have better control when you have guests, also if you ask guests to please not interact with the dog until the dog is calm (some humans are better at this than others--dog lovers seem to think they don't have to).

Not responding was particularly tough with this dog because he nips and he knows how to nip just hard enough on the back of my batwing old lady arms or my butt to hurt but not break skin. It was very difficult to keep still and not react. But we got there. And yes, it paid off. He largely ignores me when I walk in, waits until I put my things down and hang my keys, and politely asks for a pet. It goes to show that even a dog with two BB's for brains can learn this.

 

[monica26]

@operagirl84 Ok , I’m just going to blurt it out. . No judgement. But questions. Are you on a leash when you’re greeting people. ? If no , why not ? Why are you getting close enough to people ,With a reactive dog. Understand if your dog is jumping on people. Its out of control… thats no good. So identify the behavior. . Take action before the behavior activates. By distraction and redirection. If what you’re doing isn’t working . Try something else. I dare say you and your dog . haven’t done enough leash work. Ultimately it boils down to. The dog learning to follow you and your direction.

 

[operagirl84]

@monica26 Blurting is totally fine! She's on-leash at all times out and about, and rarely-if-ever jumps on strangers (case in point, the vet techs she met today, nice ladies at farmers markets, etc). I would dare say she's POLITE. She can come with me to coffee shops, the hardware store, dog-friendly shops, etc -- no problem. She is also very structured in the house while we work on manners; on a long-line on the patios, on place or in her kennel, or being actively supervised during play.

I suppose I should have clarified this: she specifically jumps on family members, housemates, and on occasion a friend who comes over to have coffee on the patio. That's where the difficulty comes in. She's very excited to see them, either because she hasn't seen them all day, or for a few days, and she is significantly more enthusiastic to hang out with them compared to some random person she doesn't know. AND on top of that, there is some muddying here, where they tell me, "no-no, it's fine, she's just a puppy, she's just excited, don't 'yell' at her [in reference to me giving her a firm "no" when she starts to jump on them]", etc. So implementing consistency both in expectations AND in the method of correction (because there are too many cooks in the kitchen in terms of, what method of greeting is appropriate from MY dog), is where it's getting hard.

Would love any leash-work resources you might have -- we've been using a lot of stuff by Tyler Muto and practicing every day but are always looking to expand our repertoire.

 

[monica26]

@operagirl84 Aw i see the picture becomes clearer now. So she identifies with people she knows. Does these people come with excited energy ?example. Baby talking her when they greet her ? Or encouraging this behavior in some way ? Try asking your guest to ignore her till she calms down. Also. When your guest do arrive. Assuming you’re at home . What do you do with the dog ? Does you give direction of what you want. ? Or ask her to stay calm . Maybe a place to be when guest come over. Ask your guest not to give attention to the excited dog. Until she is calm.

As far as leash work goes. We get caught up just going. But forget to stop. Literally. As you’re walk. Stop see if shes with you. Then continue but not to far. This time turn around and go the other way. Was the dog with you ? Next as your walking. Stop and ask her to sit or something. (All the commands she knows and the ones she doesnt)Do this 50 times each in a quarter mile. The point is keep the dog guessing . So it has to pay attention to you. Instead of just going Without interruption. Always looking to you for direction. This cross’ over to everything else eventually. The dog looking to you for guidance . When you encounter the unknown. Instead of making their own decisions about how to react. Do this every single day. Until it becomes common place and the norm. I say these things . Because they’ve work for me. I’ve trained my own service animal . So we can wonder the planet together in a predictable manner. When we face the unpredictable. Everyday is a training day. As Every situation is another opportunity to train.

check out beekmans dog training . This guy used to train Orcas for sea world. Now he trains dogs. I think he’s in Socal. He explains the how too of dog handling better than i can with examples . Most of his technics center around reactivity and how to handle it.

So what I’m going to say about jumping. I learned this from beekman…if the dog is jumping at you. You have the right to defend yourself. As do guest. Two ways that have seem to work . One walk into them when they jump at you. Or raise your knee and defect them. Never back up nor get out of the way . Claim the space and the dog will get the message .

Training takes alot of time and patients on your part. The more you do. The more results you will achieve. Alot of people tell me all the time. They should spend more time doing these exercises . But just put up with bad behavior because of the handlers lack of motivation. Im just going to say in the bluntest manner. If you got time for social media. You have time to spend training your most loyal companion. And honesty. Building the the connection, communication and predictability of your dog. Becomes so satisfying. That you wonder way you’ve wasted so much time on the phone. When your dog will gladly work for your attention.

 

[thomasking88]

@operagirl84 How much dog training experience do you have? Will a Mal/boxer mix you should probably consider getting professional training... that sounds like quite the challenging combo.

 

[operagirl84]

@thomasking88 She's a handful. Wouldn't have suspected she was Mal/Boxer when I got her; figured some type of ambiguous shepherd-type mix. She attended a board and train for severe leash reactivity towards other dogs (highly dog trafficked area; no signs of this in her shelter evaluation, or they played me -- her reactivity was above my paygrade so I found some good people to help me with it) and they use LIMA training methods. For jumping, they implement a prong correction + a firm "no".

However, she's doing an Adolescent class at a positive-only-reinforcement facility as a pre-req for their agility course (highly recommended facility and I thought that might be a fun outlet for her in six months or so, plus a helpful brush-up on her basic manners). THEY are telling me prongs are basically the devil's collar and that I should be treat-scattering to deter jumping on strangers.

I'm oscillating a little bit as I try to find a balance for her, especially with how polarized these two training facilities are.

 

[operagirl84]

How much dog training experience do you have? Will a Mal/boxer mix you should probably consider getting professional training... that sounds like quite the challenging combo.

It is worth mentioning I was the primary handler for a Shar Pei/Husky mix (about as weird of a combo as you can think of with all the worst traits of both breeds, bless her) and a Catahoula Leopard Hound/GSD mix. However, they were a little bit older when I started working with them and they didn't have jumping issues -- they had more breed-specific quirks like inappropriate herding, misdirected prey drive, etc.

 

[imagebeastmarkbeast]

@operagirl84 If the dog knows place, put them on the place while people come in and don’t let them off until they are calm.

Since the dog actually doesn’t know what place means, I would leave a leash and collar on them and force them to stay in the place. I would also hire a balanced trainer to show you how to correct this nonsense very quickly with a prong collar. Shouldn’t take more then a few weeks to clean up.

Your dog is gunna put a hole in someone someday soon if you keep letting them “gnaw” on peoples arm when they come in looool.

 

[lizaliorphan]

@operagirl84 The exact same happens with me...

 

[hall]

@operagirl84 … well let’s see here

you do understand that this is a “Herding” dog ? right?

8 out of 10 persons are in over their head with “any” herding breed dog

but ‘ … just to put things into perspective for you here ‘ even the “smallest” of herding dogs are built to withstand a strait-full-on leg kick from any hoofed mammal’ get up and still keep going in for more ‘ right ?,,,, that’s even the smallest of herding dogs - you have a mixed Mal/boxer (bull-dog) …. wtf

mals are used in the military and there is nothing humanely possible about their training- grown adult soldier men have trouble training these dogs

… to my point ‘ (set up a scenario) ,,,, from a distance (a long lead) correct the dog and put some value behind the correction (remember timing is king)

quit f*%€ing around

Thx